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Subject: Discards are forever - useful for what? rss

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Mark Turner
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Am wondering how 'discards are forever' is useful for spies... I realise I could stack my own deck, and find out what cards they have in their deck, but ultimately it feels rather convoluted.

I'd be interested in hearing more about how to use this well, alongside other spy tactics.
 
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Alfred Spangler
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What's the text on the card?
 
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Chad Wallace
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The card reads:

"All players reveal cards from their decks until they reveal a minion. Discard all revealed cards."
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Moose Detective
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Is it a moose that became a detective ? Or a detective who searches for moose?
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vandoza wrote:
The card reads:

"All players reveal cards from their decks until they reveal a minion. Discard all revealed cards."


Some of the factions can play cards from the discard pile. Time Travelers can play cards from their discard, and put cards at the bottom of their deck, so something that will cycle through cards that way might be useful.

 
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Travis Vandenberg
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The idea behind it is that you could set up your deck so that all you lose is a Spy or some other low power minion while your opponents might lose a whole lot more. My brother hit me with this and I lost four actions and a strong minion. For factions that cannot interact with their discard pile in any way, this card is terrifying. It's true that if you didn't set your deck up, you could lose big on this card and your opponents could come away barely hurt, but that's part of the chance you take with it.
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Mark Turner
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WhatAChamp wrote:
The idea behind it is that you could set up your deck so that all you lose is a Spy or some other low power minion while your opponents might lose a whole lot more. My brother hit me with this and I lost four actions and a strong minion. For factions that cannot interact with their discard pile in any way, this card is terrifying. It's true that if you didn't set your deck up, you could lose big on this card and your opponents could come away barely hurt, but that's part of the chance you take with it.


Interesting.

Just seems like a lot of set-up for an effect that is not necessarily that great - it's not as if those cards are lost for ever, after all... it mainly cycles everyone's deck quicker, and could even help an opponent if they can grab cards from discard.

This is one of those cards that makes spies feel like harder work than, say, the up-front awesomeness of the apes.

I'd love to learn a bit more about how people have used spies effectively to control the game.
 
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Benjamin Upton
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You can set it up with a single play, though. One basic Spy lets you rearrange the top 3 cards of your draw pile - if you have a minion in those three cards, put it on top and you guarantee you only lose one card.
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Mark Turner
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Draco Ignifer wrote:
You can set it up with a single play, though. One basic Spy lets you rearrange the top 3 cards of your draw pile - if you have a minion in those three cards, put it on top and you guarantee you only lose one card.

Indeed. But on average, your opponents will only lose an average of around 2 cards (assuming an even number of minions and actions).

The cards aren't gone forever, they're discarded... I not sure what is really gained by this.

The card would be nastier if it were the other way round - discard minions til you get to an action. That way the spies would gain synergy as a minion denial deck. Most people don't care about losing a random action from their deck, unless it's something special. It could even help them...
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Travis Vandenberg
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If I was Dinos (who depend on a partner for any type of discard synergy or way to get through their deck) and I lost two Augments, my Rampage, and King Rex, it would pretty much be game over. You say that the cards aren't really lost forever but if you're a faction that has no way of recovering discards and no way to draw extra cards, it is very likely that those cards ARE in fact gone for the rest of the game.
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Mark Turner
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WhatAChamp wrote:
If I was Dinos (who depend on a partner for any type of discard synergy or way to get through their deck) and I lost two Augments, my Rampage, and King Rex, it would pretty much be game over. You say that the cards aren't really lost forever but if you're a faction that has no way of recovering discards and no way to draw extra cards, it is very likely that those cards ARE in fact gone for the rest of the game.


But isn't the effect just as likely bring you closer to getting those cards? It's a random discard... you might just as likely be getting rid of dross.

I do accept there is some utility here, it just feels weak. More powerful the more players are involved, of course...
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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MrMT wrote:
But isn't the effect just as likely bring you closer to getting those cards? It's a random discard... you might just as likely be getting rid of dross.

I do accept there is some utility here, it just feels weak. More powerful the more players are involved, of course...


I will admit that you have a point. It sucks far more to have the cards discarded from your hand like with Take the Shinies. At least with Discards Are Forever, you don't end up with fewer cards, you just lose your chance to use perhaps one, perhaps five cards. It is a bit of a tossup. However, if you use Operative (3 power minion that reveals the top card of everyone's deck and lets you choose to put each back on the top or on the bottom of their deck), you can get a good feel of what your opponent will lose. If there's a Tenacious Z, you'll want to put it on the bottom instead of discarding it. If there's a really strong minion or really strong action, you'll want to keep it on top so you can force a discard with Discards Are Forever.

I personally really like the card because you can either use it blindly and hope for the best or set it up for a pretty crazy play. Sometimes I enjoy the element of chance and sometimes I like the careful planning. Last time I used it I miscalculated and lost my Ninja Master. Thankfully I got to the bottom right after and ended up shuffling and getting it back soon after but this card rewards you for thinking far in advance.

You can also use the card to get rid of unfavourable cards to get to stronger ones earlier. For example, you could even use For My Eyes Only, put two cards you like on the very top, set up any actions you don't want and any minions you don't want as the third, fourth, and fifth cards and end your turn. You would pick up the two cards you want and then next turn you could use Discards Are Forever to get rid of three cards you would rather not pick up and subsequently punish your enemies as well.
 
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Alfred Spangler
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Don't have the expansion yet (in the mail-grrrrr) - don the spies have some ability to arrange the top of opponents' draw piles?
 
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Travis Vandenberg
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The Operative (3 power minion) is the only card that lets you look at opponents' decks and move them around.
 
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David Fordham
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WhatAChamp wrote:
I will admit that you have a point. It sucks far more to have the cards discarded from your hand like with Take the Shinies. At least with Discards Are Forever, you don't end up with fewer cards, you just lose your chance to use perhaps one, perhaps five cards.


But you gain the chance to use one, perhaps five cards. Unless you have some reason to think the cards at the top are better than the cards at the bottom it doesn't make any difference.

If it only affected yourself it would do something because it synergises with Zombies but with the risk that it buffs other players means it generally does slightly less than nothing. Yeah you can stop drawing unwanted cards with For my Eyes Only but no card does as little as Discards anyway.
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Mark Turner
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Rubarack wrote:
WhatAChamp wrote:
I will admit that you have a point. It sucks far more to have the cards discarded from your hand like with Take the Shinies. At least with Discards Are Forever, you don't end up with fewer cards, you just lose your chance to use perhaps one, perhaps five cards.


But you gain the chance to use one, perhaps five cards. Unless you have some reason to think the cards at the top are better than the cards at the bottom it doesn't make any difference.


Exactly!
 
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Wim D
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I haven't tried it, but it could be paired with Time Travelers. I have yet to find when it is useful to do it to your opponent.
 
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Toby Grandjean
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As stated, it's a bit of a toss up. It hurts the players without the ability to manipulate their discards more and in addition, you'll probably see more of an effect in a four player game.
Quite a bit of the Spies cards are like that.
From O With Love can get you a good card quickly at the potential cost of losing 2 others.
It's part of the fun of this faction. Like Pirates, you don't necessarily have the power- instead you've got the potential for some amazing combo plays and gotchas.
 
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Mark Turner
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So, six months later - is anyone finding spies to be a good faction. I still can't shake the sense that there was an idea here struggling to get out, but which didn't quite happen in practice.
 
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J
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MrMT wrote:
So, six months later - is anyone finding spies to be a good faction. I still can't shake the sense that there was an idea here struggling to get out, but which didn't quite happen in practice.


Spies? Yeah I find them a great faction. Their weeny minion (Spy) have a degree of deck manipulation which is very useful in the early game and additionally "For my eyes only" or "From Q with Love" can be used for deck manipulation as well. Although it might not be exactly the same as drawing a lot of cards, being able to have a degree of control over what you draw is very good if you have a general idea of your deck composition and what you need at the time.

Admittedly the Spy attacks aren't quite as good as some of the other factions albeit they are not terrible either. "The Spy Who ditched me" in a drawn out game can run certain factions out of minions albeit most of the other attacks which hit the top of decks aren't all that useful since you are not really reducing your opponent's capabilities. "Mindraker" is also a highly situational card but in the right situation it's very good.

However the real bread and butter of the spies are the 2 "Moles", "Live and Let Chum" and "The Base is Not Enough." All of these cards give the Spies a lot of control as bases break and can be really terrifying, especially "The Base is Not Enough."

I've seen bases switch hands frequently thanks to these cards and unlike say Pirates who have no ability to find their super card Spies can hunt for it increasing the chance they'll find it before the game is over.
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