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Subject: [Deck] HB Arcology - How to improve? rss

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J W
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I'd like to discuss my Deck idea using the Haas Arcology AI. I have had moderate success with it on OCTGN so far and it's probably the only deck I played for long enough to feel confident to actually discuss it.
This is both looking for advice on how to improve my deck, since I feel it lacks the punch against good runners, but also highlighting my more or less helpful thought process refining it so far.


The first variant of this Deck started out like this:

HB Arcology

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (Core Set)

Agenda (11)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
1x Director Haas' Pet Project (Creation and Control)
3x Efficiency Committee (Creation and Control)
1x False Lead (A Study in Static)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)

Asset (9)
3x Adonis Campaign (Core Set)
3x Haas Arcology AI (Creation and Control)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Operation (13)
2x Bioroid Efficiency Research (Creation and Control)
3x Biotic Labor (Core Set)
2x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves) ••••• •
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)
3x Restructure (Second Thoughts)

Barrier (6)
2x Heimdall 2.0 (Creation and Control)
3x Wall of Static (Core Set)
1x Wotan (Second Thoughts)

Code Gate (6)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
1x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••
2x Viktor 2.0 (Creation and Control)

Sentry (4)
1x Flare (Future Proof) •••
1x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set)
1x Ichi 2.0 (Creation and Control)
1x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Second Thoughts

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Scoring 3/2 Agendas out of hand with Biotic Labor, is great but that alone probably won't win you the game. The Arcology AI can let you still make the risky install->advance->advance play without any of the risk and have another avenue to score agendas from hand without resorting to spending all your Influence on SanSans.
With this first iteration I tried to combine the big ICE strategy HB is also good at with the power of Fast Advance. I of course needed lots of quick money (Celebrity Gift & Restructure) so I could afford to score an Agenda with Biotic Labor anytime I wanted, while still being able to rez the big pieces of ICE even without Bioroid Efficiency Research to actually keep the runner out when it counts!

If I was able to lock out the runner out of a Remote for a turn or two Arcology is crazily good. If I can load it with two counters and score two agendas this way it's probably game since the rest of the points just follows with Biotic Labors. It's also good with only one counter, but then you're basically paying half of a SanSan City grid just to use it once, but the Runner still probably wants to run through your remote even if he knows it's just the Arcology.

The big ICE is still too expensive to rez, usually I just could lock down one server at most and I didn't find Bioroid Efficiency Research reliable enough to disencourage any runs at all. Also Crescentus, Emergency Shutdown as well as the occasional Snitch-Blackguard really didn't help with keeping the Big ICE in play.

While the deck can be quite fast with the right draw, it often plays very very slowly when either agendas or Biotic/Arcology don't show up early and it is certainly no match for true FA decks in terms of speed.


The variant I'm currently playing evolved a bit:

HB Arcology v2

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (Core Set)

Agenda (12)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
1x Director Haas' Pet Project (Creation and Control)
2x Efficiency Committee (Creation and Control)
3x Gila Hands Arcology (Creation and Control)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)

Asset (9)
3x Adonis Campaign (Core Set)
3x Haas Arcology AI (Creation and Control)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Operation (11)
3x Biotic Labor (Core Set)
2x Celebrity Gift (Opening Moves) ••••• •
3x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)

Barrier (6)
2x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
1x Heimdall 2.0 (Creation and Control)
2x Wall of Static (Core Set)
1x Wraparound (Fear and Loathing)

Code Gate (7)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
2x RSVP (True Colors) ••••
2x Viktor 2.0 (Creation and Control)

Sentry (4)
1x Ichi 2.0 (Creation and Control)
2x Rototurret (Core Set)
1x Swordsman (Second Thoughts)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Fear and Loathing

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

I took out one Efficiency Committee since it is so hard to actually get scored and doesn't really do all that much once it is - more often than not I don't mind the Runner stealing one of those. I wonder if there is a better agenda to include with this, but I just don't see it.(maybe the NAPD Contract once Double Time is out?)

The ICE in here is a lot lighter, so I'll be sure to have something to defend in the early. I have more cheap end the run ICE (8 vs. 6 before) to sneak out the occasional early game agenda (notably Rototurret - so now I also have a Sentry that ends the run).
Eli is sooooo great on R%D (everybody plays Corroder) and not as complicated to get in play as Tollbooth.
RSVP is a code gate out of Yog's range and is good regardless on which server you put: it either reinforces a EtR ice that's already there or they can still get in but don't trash my Arcology .
Heimdall 2.0 and Ichi 2.0 are the only "teeth" my ICE have left from the previous iteration.

Considering Economy I downsized the Restructures to GLC since Gila Hands provides a bit of money and the additional card draw helps speeding things up - also I don't really need the Restructures now that all the big Ice are gone.

---------------------------------------------------
I'd appreciate any comments on the general idea of using the Arcology AI as well as the specific decks or my assessment of them. In particular I'm thinking about the following points concerning changes I'd like to make to the deck:

Wouldn't I be better off just playing the standard HBFA with SanSan City Grid? None of the ice will keep out a finished rig anyway and with the light ICE suit it already feels very close to FA.

Is the influence I save from not playing SanSans really best put in Celebrity Gifts? The pocket giraffe certainly is awesome and easily the reason I don't run out of money even against Account Siphon, but there must be something better!

Now that I have so many onepointers Archer is becoming a tempting option - giving back some of the oomph the heavy ICE had without really needing to spend economy on it. That should probably help with the late game problems that come up.

No tag punishment at all and the runner knows it - they will happily keep the tags from AS and discard Plascrete with a smile. I'm really tempted to throw a Closed Accounts in somewhere...

Eijo
 
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Captain Frisk
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Bottom line: San san is better. You can't complain about it's influence cost of you are going to import celebrity gift into an already rich faction.

Low trash cost assets / upgrades are extremely dangerous, and if you charge you arcology twice, it has cost you as much as a Sansan, can only be used twice AND doesn't drain the runner AND cost you time and money even of Rey don't pay out.

You might want to investigate combos though. Shipment from mirror morph, shipment from kayuga let you score a 3 pointer from hand. If you have all of that in hand and lots of money
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Bryant Smith
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Here is my version of Arcology AI. I've had a lot of success with it so far.

Corporation: Haas-Bioroid

Identity: Engineering the Future

Agendas: 10
3x Project Vitruvius
3x Accelerated Beta Test
2x Efficiency Committee
1x Priority Requisition
1x Director Haas' Pet Project

Assets: 10
3x Jackson Howard*
3x Haas Arcology AI
2x Adonis Campaign
2x Eve Campaign

Ice: 20
3x Eli 1.0
2x Wall of Static
2x Wraparound*
2x Rototurret
2x Ichi 1.0
1x Caduceus**
2x RSVP**
2x Tollbooth**
2x Victor 2.0
1x Minelayer
1x Enigma

Operations: 6
3x Hedge Fund
3x Blue Level Clearance

Upgrades: 3
3x Ash

My deck just wants to tax the runner in as many ways possible. There's just enough annoying ice of each type that you force them to build a full rig while also trying to trash your assets and upgrades, something that is difficult to do without creating scoring windows for the corp.

To answer your points specifically,

Eijolend wrote:
Wouldn't I be better off just playing the standard HBFA with SanSan City Grid? None of the ice will keep out a finished rig anyway and with the light ICE suit it already feels very close to FA.

Is the influence I save from not playing SanSans really best put in Celebrity Gifts? The pocket giraffe certainly is awesome and easily the reason I don't run out of money even against Account Siphon, but there must be something better!

Now that I have so many onepointers Archer is becoming a tempting option - giving back some of the oomph the heavy ICE had without really needing to spend economy on it. That should probably help with the late game problems that come up.

No tag punishment at all and the runner knows it - they will happily keep the tags from AS and discard Plascrete with a smile. I'm really tempted to throw a Closed Accounts in somewhere...

Eijo


Ultimately, standard SanSan fast advance is probably better than using Haas Arcology AI, but the fact that I've done well with this deck, with no SanSan or Biotic, has value to me.

I spent that saved influence on a more varied ICE suite. Between the Campaigns and Hedge/Blue Level I don't have any money concerns in this deck.

I'm only running the single 1 pointer, but I'm generally not a fan of Archer in HB. They run mostly 2 point agendas, and they have access to Rototurret, Ichi, and Grim. Corporate troubleshooter helps those ICE do work as well.

No tag punishment is a major concern in most HB decks. Runners keep tags against HB. I feel like 1-2 closed accounts could be worth it, especially in a deck that's trying to tax the runner as much as possible.
 
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J. Chris Miller
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Captain_Frisk wrote:
Bottom line: San san is better. You can't complain about it's influence cost of you are going to import celebrity gift into an already rich faction.


Hmm..I disagree with this statement. The great thing about Arcology, is that you can just throw it in a fairly well-defended server and then advance it once and just let it sit there. If the runner goes for it, well it's not that much of an investment. On the other hand, if they don't, you saved 5 credits in comparison to San San.

I've won games where I did that, and they ran it, and then trashed it. Sure, that happens. But you drop another one. Also, they sometimes won't even run it because they suspect Secretary.

I do like to run it in a LOW Agenda density deck though. NEXT is the ideal deck for this card IMO. I had a server with 8 pieces of ice on it. Sure, he ran all the way through and wasted 15 credits to trash it, then I just installed an agenda next turn and scored it the old fashioned way.

I think it's a good in-faction fast advance tool. San San may be more powerful due to it's trash cost, and you don't need to advance it, but I don't know if that equates to "better."
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Joey Schulte
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My advice would be to add a secretary in that regard. If everytime you advance something it's either an agenda or an archology, there isn't an incentive to not run on it once they realize what's happening. Secretary is a great card. Your call on what to take out.

If you run Sentinel Defense Program you may be able to bluff some of your installs as Cerebral Overrider if you feel you aren't getting enough mileage from Efficiency Committee. Having 2 actions after gifting sounds nice though, or over drawing before gifting. I'd also play blue level over green to keep the hand big for Gift.
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Captain Frisk
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coyotemoon722 wrote:
Captain_Frisk wrote:
Bottom line: San san is better. You can't complain about it's influence cost of you are going to import celebrity gift into an already rich faction.


Hmm..I disagree with this statement. The great thing about Arcology, is that you can just throw it in a fairly well-defended server and then advance it once and just let it sit there. If the runner goes for it, well it's not that much of an investment. On the other hand, if they don't, you saved 5 credits in comparison to San San.


Arcology -

In your single advance scenario:

If the runner trashes SanSan, you're net ahead 5 credits (+ other costs of running the server) If the runner trashes a single advanced arcology, k, you're neutral on credits - but you've wasted a click more than the runner.

If the runner doesn't trash arcology, and you pop it immediately you've basically played a vulnerable Biotic labor (it will cost you $2 to rez, $1 for the advancement, and $1 in opportunity cost for the dollar that the advancement could have been). Since you can't keep charging the arcology, its a dead card - SanSan keeps on giving. She charges you $1 more for that first advance (because she does discount the actual scoring of the agenda) - but then either forces your opponent to trash her, or you just win!

Arcology is also very fragile in your R&D & HQ.

Looking at the OP's decklist, it woudl be very easy to take the 2 celebrity gifts - replace them Adonis / Eve, replace 2 of the Arcologies with SanSan, and have improved the deck.

Now - if you have reason to spend influence on something else BETTER than sansan - we might be talking.

*cough* Caprice *cough*
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Kaiwen Zhang
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haas arcology is great in conjunction with sansan, not replacement.

put a haas with 2 advanced on top of a super server with sansan, ash, etc. to protect, make it a mindgame by mixing it up with sometimes installing a 2 adv AggSec to protect sansan.

then use the first token to advance a 3/2

use the second token + rez sansan to score a eff committee (trash the arcology)

then use SfSS to close out the game.

this will become even better when Will 'O comes out.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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interns + taxing server + arcology is also a somewhat tasty recipe
 
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J W
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Thank you all for your input - I think I now have some variants in mind I will try!

So basically out with the Celebrity Gifts and searching for something that is actually worth the influence.

I also like the idea of an Aggressive Secretary or Cerebral Overwriter, so the Runner can't be sure that thing that they're running on is an Arcology (come to think of it - Arcology would probably work well in a HB Braindamage deck^^).

I'll also look into porting this over to NEXT Design - but I'll probably have to include a bit more ice for that - don't really know how it will play without the additional money from EtF though..
 
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Glenn Glenn
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I think RSVP is going to be nuts in this deck. You can trade something for melange, and all of a sudden RSVP is super annoying. Even in front of rd it stops them from trashing your stuff.
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J W
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I playtested my new version some more and here it is:

HB Arcology v3

Haas-Bioroid: Engineering the Future (Core Set)

Agenda (12)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core Set)
1x Director Haas' Pet Project (Creation and Control)
3x Gila Hands Arcology (Creation and Control)
2x NAPD Contract (Double Time)
3x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)

Asset (9)
3x Adonis Campaign (Core Set)
3x Haas Arcology AI (Creation and Control)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) •••

Operation (11)
3x Biotic Labor (Core Set)
2x Blue Level Clearance (Fear and Loathing)
1x Closed Accounts (Core Set)
2x Green Level Clearance (A Study in Static)
3x Hedge Fund (Core Set)

Barrier (6)
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
2x Wall of Static (Core Set)
1x Wraparound (Fear and Loathing)

Code Gate (7)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
2x RSVP (True Colors) ••••
2x Tollbooth (Core Set) ••••

Sentry (4)
1x Archer (Core Set) ••
1x Ichi 1.0 (Core Set)
2x Rototurret (Core Set)

15 influence spent (max 15)
20 agenda points (between 20 and 21)
49 cards (min 45)
Cards up to Double Time

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.

Comments on the changes:

*Spending the influence on ICE instead of money is definitely the way to go. Tollbooth is so much better at taxing the runner, but not much easier to break than Heimdall 2.0 or the other big ice I was using.
Archer is basically just there for the nasty surprise it sometimes brings because nobody is expecting it and even if they see it in R&D the runner gets much more cautious all of a sudden.

*Green Level and Blue Level work really well, since my concern is often just finally drawing the agendas when I have enough to score one. Jackson Howard already helps with that, but I think Green Level and Blue Level are much better economy options in this deck than adding Eve Campaigns for example.

*NAPD Contract replaces Efficiency Committee quite nicely since I don't plan on scoring them anyway and the 4cr to steal is a very useful tempohit.

*Closed Accounts - no regrets at all!
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Captain Frisk
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Eijolend wrote:

*NAPD Contract replaces Efficiency Committee quite nicely since I don't plan on scoring them anyway and the 4cr to steal is a very useful tempohit.


This is very important people! Big upgrade to my HB (boring SanSan version) with this card.
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