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Subject: [Deck] Weyland combo - (6-0, Store Championship winner - Copenhagen) rss

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Sonny A.
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Copenhagen
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I went undeafeated (4 swiss and 2 elimination rounds) with this deck, at a Store Championship in Copenhagen. Ultimately I won the tournament, but this thread is to demonstrate the power of the accelerated combo that has been discussed in other threads (mainly this one)

Strategy is to gain a lot of creds, perhaps rush an agenda or two, and draw into combo pieces. Combo win when the runner makes a mistake. It does take some skill to pilot. You have to know the decks components and be aware of board state at all times. Well, most decks do. Just saying you can't play this blindfolded and expect to win.

There are two combo win conditions.

1. Seasource/Midseason and double scorch (triple if you have Jackson installed already and a SEA or Scorch in hand)
2. Use Interns and Shipment from SanSan to score the final points.

Of the 6 times I won with this deck in that tournament. 5 was by double scorch. 1 was triple scorch. Only 1 time did I actually have the SEASource and 2 scorches in my hand. Rest were combo wins.

The accelerated combo is so ridiculously powerful. At least the threat of the upcoming "Donut Taganes" will make this deck type risky. Personally, I never liked the "turn over your entire deck" combo. It feels "wrong" to me. And the people that lose to it often shake their head in disbelief. You can just tell that this sucks the fun out of the game for them.

But here it is. Netdeck away. Go win tournaments. I'll sit back and hope that a nerf will come soon, so I can get my fun back.

--

Identity: Weyland: Building a Better World

Cards: 49 / 45
Agenda points: 20 / 20
Influence: 15 / 15

Agenda (9)
3x Hostile Takeover
3x Priority Requisition
1x Project Atlas
2x The Cleaners

Asset (3)
3x Jackson Howard ●●●

Ice (13)
2x Archer
2x Caduceus
3x Datapike
1x Draco
2x Hadrians Wall
3x Ice Wall

Operation (24)
2x Accelerated Diagnostics ●●
3x Beanstalk Royalties
2x Green Level Clearance ●●
3x Hedge Fund
1x Interns
1x Midseason Replacements ●●●●
3x Power Shutdown
3x Restructure
1x SEASource ●●
3x Scorched Earth
2x Shipment from SanSan ●●
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Thomas R
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Congrats on the win! Sucks that you didn't seem to have much fun, though.

I'm curious, though: do you not see a lot of Plastcrete Carapace in your meta? The local (NYC) meta still shows TONS of Plastcrete Carapace, which looks like it just turns off your combo win. You mention having to triple-Scorched Earth once, so I presume that you saw it in at least one game.

Were the other games just too fast for your opponent to get one on the table, or were they just surprised when they discovered what your plan was?
 
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Congrats!

I'm also curious as to the dominance of this combo though, and why runners seem to be dropping like flies to it.

Is it just a meta thing where people don't run Plascretes, or are they making obvious mistakes/subtle mistakes/feeling under pressure?
 
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Sonny A.
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Sure, lots of people install plascrete. The thing is that I can use the cards when I draw them and still combo win with them later.

One time I simply removed one with a Power Shutdown for X=3.

Another time I just used SEASource and a single Scorch hoping that he would use it up. But the clever runner only took one counter off and ditched his 3 card hand. But I still double scorched him later.

The triple scorch did burn through a plascrete as well.

And one runner had a plascrete out, but was forced to run and steal and agenda (during elimination and he couldn't let me score an agenda due to the first match result) and he ended up having only 3 cards in hand. Combo double scorch right after.

Most often (not only for this tournament) the runner simply can't find the plascrete fast enough. What should they do? Not run at all until they've found one? That'll lose the game as well once I start installing and advance agendas. If I can score 4-5 points, then I can combo into a point victory. Didn't happen in this tournament, but it's very viable.
 
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Thomas R
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Good points on going through Plastcrete like that. But the ability to land two SEA Source tags throughout the game is pretty interesting. What's the runner field look like? Is anyone running aggressive economy like Magnum Opus? I've found, running a similar combo deck, that the better players will just keep the credits close enough that landing even the first tag is pretty tough. They don't feel the need to run R&D or HQ, suspecting that they can just wait until I install things.

So any advice you've got on how to deal with people doing that would be appreciated.
 
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You sound like a tortured artist. Don't mistake playing probably weak very likely unprepared competition for having solved/broken the game. Just enjoy a few blowouts with a gimmick deck people aren't ready for. I wouldn't wait on FFG making any erratas to account for your Copenhagen store win.
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SonnyDK wrote:
What should they do? Not run at all until they've found one? That'll lose the game as well once I start installing and advance agendas.


Not running until you've found one is definitely better than dying. But there are other options. If you're not already floating tags, money or other cards (NACH, Decoy) can block the trace/tag.

I guess the key distinction I'm looking for is between people making mistakes and trickier edge cases. Running R&D second click with a Plascrete out and 5 cards in hand, hitting a Snare!, and then losing your last 2 clicks to a False Lead and getting combo'd is not something I'm overly worried about.

But it sounds more like people are being forced into more straightforward mistakes by the scoring power of your deck, which is interesting. Just trying to get some idea about your meta.
 
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Sonny A.
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anathomical wrote:
Good points on going through Plastcrete like that. But the ability to land two SEA Source tags throughout the game is pretty interesting. What's the runner field look like? Is anyone running aggressive economy like Magnum Opus? I've found, running a similar combo deck, that the better players will just keep the credits close enough that landing even the first tag is pretty tough. They don't feel the need to run R&D or HQ, suspecting that they can just wait until I install things.

So any advice you've got on how to deal with people doing that would be appreciated.


I think (sorry, my memory sucks and I didn't take notes) I faced, 2xCT, 1xKate, 2xAndy, 1xGabe. One of the CT was a Blackmail deck. By far the worst matchup I had.

There was one player who used Magnum Opus. I shut it down with Power Shutdown for 5 (I had a Jackson installed, so felt safe) after he checked my wide open HQ.

But yes, there is no doubt that player mistakes won me a lot of games. And that the safest thing to do against this deck is to save up money and not run unless it's to steal an agenda AND get two plascretes out. But runners don't do that. They run and they die.
 
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Sonny A.
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AstroLad wrote:
You sound like a tortured artist. Don't mistake playing probably weak very likely unprepared competition for having solved/broken the game. Just enjoy a few blowouts with a gimmick deck people aren't ready for. I wouldn't wait on FFG making any erratas to account for your Copenhagen store win.


Ah, don't get me wrong. I'm glad that I won and I do feel proud. I've been to a lot of store tournaments (this was my 4th) and placed top 4 twice. But this was my first win.

But I just wanted to focus on the deck and the power of the combo and not so much about the winning a tournament. That's why I don't mention my runner deck.

I used this deck because I feel that it's the most powerful and gives me the greatest chance to win. When I enter a tournament it's to win. I play my fun decks on casual nights. But at the same time I feel that the combo is taking fun out of the game. And I do like the game. I do not like things that makes me not like the game. I think it's making the game boring.

And in the thread I link to at the top I also explain my feelings on this combo. So I made this thread to prove a point about combos. Not to brag about winning.
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Sonny A.
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zoolicious wrote:
But there are other options. If you're not already floating tags, money or other cards (NACH, Decoy) can block the trace/tag.


That's why the Midseasons is there. It doesn't care about Decoy or NACH. All I have to do is gain monetary advantage and have the combo pieces. Then I can drop an agenda and advance it.

Steal it and die.. or let me score it and lose. It's often putting the runner in a tight spot.

Conditions aren't always optimal for the runner. The runners deck might be tuned to handle decks as this, but they don't always draw their pieces or they simply make mistakes. Perhaps they need cash and they Dirty Laundry my archives and don't think about how it opens them to SEASource.

In one game that happened. He ran, I SEASourced and trashed his credit resources. Now he's back to struggling for cash.

Ofcourse some people will claim that they could easily defeat this deck with whatever they ran with at a tournament. But being there is an entirely different thing. You might not draw your econ, or your breakers or your plascrete. We've all been there.

Plus, I got lucky in some matches. No doubt about it. I could have lost many times, but I simply didn't. That's how it is. Luck is also a factor. I'm sure that a lot of tournament winners will agree that at some point during the tournament, they got lucky.
 
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Sebastian Barth
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Completely unrelated, but do you remember how many coin flips you won during elimination rounds?
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Sonny A.
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sirprim wrote:
Completely unrelated, but do you remember how many coin flips you won during elimination rounds?


I don't know what you mean by coinflips. If you mean choosing the starting player, then we chose side by random (not winner chooses) in the first round and in the 2nd I lost the flip, and my opponent chose to corp first (I would have chosen runner first, so same outcome regardless).
 
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Thomas R
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SonnyDK wrote:
anathomical wrote:
Good points on going through Plastcrete like that. But the ability to land two SEA Source tags throughout the game is pretty interesting. What's the runner field look like? Is anyone running aggressive economy like Magnum Opus? I've found, running a similar combo deck, that the better players will just keep the credits close enough that landing even the first tag is pretty tough. They don't feel the need to run R&D or HQ, suspecting that they can just wait until I install things.

So any advice you've got on how to deal with people doing that would be appreciated.


I think (sorry, my memory sucks and I didn't take notes) I faced, 2xCT, 1xKate, 2xAndy, 1xGabe. One of the CT was a Blackmail deck. By far the worst matchup I had.

There was one player who used Magnum Opus. I shut it down with Power Shutdown for 5 (I had a Jackson installed, so felt safe) after he checked my wide open HQ.

But yes, there is no doubt that player mistakes won me a lot of games. And that the safest thing to do against this deck is to save up money and not run unless it's to steal an agenda AND get two plascretes out. But runners don't do that. They run and they die.


Do you feel like you could play against this deck if your opponent had it? What would your approach be? Dig for Plastcrete? Try to score 7 points fast and end the game before your opponent can put together their full combo? Sit back and just take credits, waiting for the corp to install an agenda, and not bothering to run centrals along the way?

Or do you even know how you'd approach it yet? Just trying to figure out what your approach would be as someone "experienced" with the deck if you needed to beat it.
 
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Matt Dawkins
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SonnyDK wrote:
Strategy is to gain a lot of creds, perhaps rush an agenda or two, and draw into combo pieces. Combo win when the runner makes a mistake. It does take some skill to pilot. You have to know the decks components and be aware of board state at all times. Well, most decks do. Just saying you can't play this blindfolded and expect to win.


We have a dedicated Weyland combo player in the state. Even before he started playing the combo, he was undoubtedly one of our best players (he has the second highest number of top four finishes in the state). He went 4-0-1 with the combo deck the first time he played it, at one of the larger tournaments in the area pre-Store Championship season. There were a couple factors at work there... for one, Weyland was one of the least-played factions in the area prior to Store Championships. Two, very few people had seen the combo or were truly aware of Power Shutdown and Accelerated Diagnostic's possibilities. Three, the runners were flat-out stupid. Two of those four wins were from runners who let Jackson Howard sit in a remote server with no protection and didn't run to trash him. A third was because a runner dropped below four cards with just one Plascrete out.

Runners smartened up during Store Championship season, and that player is now 11-12 with the Weyland combo deck through five Store Championships.. playing some of the exact same players he beat up on originally.

I personally am convinced that smart runners can easily out maneuver the typical Weyland combo deck. Against high-caliber players, I'd much rather have a more traditional Weyland deck in the veins of the Supermodernism archetype to take advantage of cautious players and utilize Weyland's strong rush attributes. The combo deck certainly takes advantage of new players, unsuspecting players, and stupid runners. I don't think that makes it ridiculously powerful. I imagine that you'd have very different set of results if you went back and played the same set of players with the deck again. Or sat down and played with more runners who knew what they were doing.

I will also say that I believe people who think this combo is taking the fun out of the game are crazy. The matches I've had against it have been some of the most fun, intense, and thematic games of Netrunner that I've played; and I've played a decent amount of games.

My two cents, take 'em for whatever they're worth.
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Sonny A.
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anathomical wrote:

Do you feel like you could play against this deck if your opponent had it? What would your approach be? Dig for Plastcrete? Try to score 7 points fast and end the game before your opponent can put together their full combo? Sit back and just take credits, waiting for the corp to install an agenda, and not bothering to run centrals along the way?

Or do you even know how you'd approach it yet? Just trying to figure out what your approach would be as someone "experienced" with the deck if you needed to beat it.


This deck has no fast advance or means to protect the remote further (Ash, Troubleshooter). The way to win against it is to have more money than the corp or two plascretes out (and 4+ cards in hand). If you have both, run all you want. Congrats, you win.

If you get to 5 points or more, you can allow yourself to just sit back and not run, unless the corp advances something in a remote. There's no way he can get to 7 points without advancing a card in a remote and there's no way to keep you out of a server if you have plenty of cash. You just need to be able to run the remote once.

So try to steal points early by running R&D. Always trash Jackson Howards. Don't run if corp has more credits than you, if you don't have at least 1 plascrete out. With 1 plascrete out, always keep 4+ cards in hand and you can run every time something gets installed in a remote. Just have enough cash left to trash Jackson.

But before applying that strategy, you have to be sure that you're up against this deck. And you can't really identify that, unless you run and a see an accelerated diagnotics. Every corp deck in the known universe includes Jackson Howard. A lot of Weyland would include Power Shutdown, just because it's a damn good card on its own.
 
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Sonny A.
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CrimsonWraith wrote:
I imagine that you'd have very different set of results if you went back and played the same set of players with the deck again. Or sat down and played with more runners who knew what they were doing.


Actually, a lot have seen this deck before. Been playing it at 2 other Store Championships. I've not exposed it like this though. But I do play against some regulars who have seen the deck before. My 3rd round opponent was my practice buddy and previous winner of a Store Championship. He's running a mean Andromeda deck. But along the way he made a mistake and I eventually flatlined him him.

The power of the deck is also that it can sometimes force the runners hand. If I drop something in a remote and advance it twice, many experienced players will run it. They will not allow me to score a Cleaners or Priority Req that lets me flip an Archer or Hadrians.

If I can score a couple of 3-pointers early, then I can win by drawing into a Hostile Takeover. Or if I score a single 3-pointer and 2 Hostiles, then I can combo win from hand if they run anything, regardless of number of plascretes installed.

A better player will be fare better against this deck. But it is by no means easy to defeat, even if you know it well.
 
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Matt Dawkins
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SonnyDK wrote:
A better player will be fare better against this deck. But it is by no means easy to defeat, even if you know it well.


I think it lies somewhere in the wide gap between "easy to defeat" and "ridiculously powerful". I agree with you that it's a powerful deck. I think it's a challenging deck to play against that enables an entertaining game of cat-and-mouse which is not always present with other Corp decks. I disagree on the point of it being most powerful Corp deck in the game right now and in need of being "nerfed". In my experience with this deck, the only nerf it needs is smarter runner play.

That's all I'm trying to say.
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Zak Jarvis
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Did you face anyone with Imps in their deck who guessed what your plan was? If so, did they try to run HQ and Imp away your combo cards and how did it work if they did?
 
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Sonny A.
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popeye09 wrote:
Did you face anyone with Imps in their deck who guessed what your plan was? If so, did they try to run HQ and Imp away your combo cards and how did it work if they did?


No, I did not see any imps. But the Andy deck did play a Demolition Run, but it was on R&D and not HQ.
 
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James Henry
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I feel similarly about combo decks but don't play them. I'm not faulting you for playing it at all, I get why you'd play it, no worries there. I do find them frustrating from the perspective of people netdecking the combo powerhouse. I don't want to open the net deck can of worms, I don't even think net decking is wrong either - it's just frustrating in that "oh you won with the flavor of the month power combo and you use someone else's version of it. cool." kind of way. To each his own though.

As for "beating the combo" I think the only options that really work are crushing the corp's economy which, with Weyland, isn't easy to do. There's also the obvious "win first" via agendas but you've already detailed that's not particularly easy.

I can only think that some kind of deck focused on trashing your combo pieces is one that works. My buddy runs a Whizzard deck that takes its time setting up massive R&D digs but uses the time until it's set up to kill important cards in the opponent's deck. Imp being the big pain here - but even then you've got quite a bit of recursion. Even then it would probably be too late for the runner to figure out what pieces were important before they lost.

 
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Sonny A.
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jhmanufacture wrote:
I feel similarly about combo decks but don't play them. I'm not faulting you for playing it at all, I get why you'd play it, no worries there. I do find them frustrating from the perspective of people netdecking the combo powerhouse. I don't want to open the net deck can of worms, I don't even think net decking is wrong either - it's just frustrating in that "oh you won with the flavor of the month power combo and you use someone else's version of it. cool." kind of way. To each his own though.


Not sure what you're saying here. But this deck is entirely my own design. I'm giving it out so people can net deck it if they want. I have no feelings on that particular topic.
 
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Christopher MacLeod
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I've played against this combo a number of times on OCTGN and I don't understand how you don't think this matchup is fun. This is way more fun than playing against SanSan spam and the Astro Train - the opening turns are a tense balance between tactical runs/defense and maintaining economic parity. Every credit of value each player can squeeze out can mean the difference between success and failure on a game-winning trace.

Later on Runner actually has to make runs on remote servers containing advanced agendas - how is that not the spirit of the game?

This combo is very beatable with a stock Andysucker list if you play smart. With correct play you can reliably get equal money to Weyland: get Kati out early and either Account Siphon (removing tags) or force them to over-invest in HQ defense (which you can then inside job + shutdown).

Most combo lists run light on ICE - this one has effectively 9 early game ICE in the deck and only 6 of them have hard ETR so it's very viable to get in with a minimal investment in breakers.

I think the sole advantage of this style of deck is that you very consistently have the combo in hand in some form, whereas sometimes Supermodernism will have an opening but not the cards to flatline. But a smart Runner can minimize the number of such openings anyway to the point where you have to get lucky to combo out.

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mplain
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Hello there, OP.

Could you provide your runner decklist, for the record at stimhack.com?

Thanks!
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Sonny A.
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mplain wrote:
Hello there, OP.

Could you provide your runner decklist, for the record at stimhack.com?

Thanks!


Sure. Store name is "Faraos Cigarer" (Copenhagen). The runner deck went 5-1. Lost 7-6 in the first game in the final.

And I would totally destroy my corp deck with this

Identity: Shapers: Kate "Mac" McCaffrey

Cards: 45 / 45
Influence: 15 / 15

Event (20)
3x Account Siphon ●●●●●●●●●●●●
3x Diesel
3x Dirty Laundry
1x Escher
1x Levy AR Lab Access
2x Modded
2x Quality Time
3x Sure Gamble
2x The Makers Eye

Hardware (12)
2x Clone Chip
3x CyberSolutions Mem Chip
3x Plascrete Carapace
3x Prepaid VoicePAD
1x The Toolbox

Program (11)
1x Deus X
1x Garrote ●●●
1x Gordian Blade
3x Magnum Opus
3x Self-Modifying Code
1x Sharpshooter
1x Snowball

Resource (2)
2x Same Old Thing
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James Henry
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SonnyDK wrote:

Not sure what you're saying here. But this deck is entirely my own design. I'm giving it out so people can net deck it if they want. I have no feelings on that particular topic.


I think what I am saying is pretty straightforward: I find it boring/frustrating when people drop the flavor-of-the-month power combo on you much like you find it boring. I think it's even more boring frustrating when someone thoughtlessly netdecks it and doesn't even bother to try their own version or maybe varying it up a bit.

I think it's fine that people net deck. Play the game the way you want to, even if it's net decking the power combo, I don't get to decide how you play the game. It's just my opinion that it's boring/cheesy. I fully understand that it's efficient.

You wanted to open discussion about the fact that the combo is going around and might not be making the game fun for people in general and those were my thoughts on it. I hope that clears it up for you.
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