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Subject: Plausible loitering situation regarding Darkness Falls rss

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Julian St. Pierre
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I was just thinking about this and its not a game changer by any means but wanted to see if this was plausible.

So, as the loitering rule states "If the Heroes do not spend at least one AP in a Hero Cycle, they are considered to be Loitering" and the rules for Darkness Falls states that "In order to disarm Hidden traps, the affected player must choose to discard a card from his or her hand. This grants the affected Hero one opportunity to make a Non-combat Action roll. If the Hero fails at his disarm attempt, the trap damages the Hero. Each damage raises the Darkness AP by 1."

Could it be argued, that if the hero's have taken the non-combat Action and received AP by failure to disarm, that they would in fact not be loitering and not required to play a card that raise AP?



 
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Patrick Jones
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As usual with this game, play it the way that makes things more enjoyable for you.

I think my interpretation would be that the players did not "spend" that AP. The darkness AP went up, but not by virtue of the players' actions.
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Magic Pink
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That certainly seems cut and dried to me, yes.
 
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Julian St. Pierre
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I would play it with the Hero's having to play a card. It was just situation where I could see a little grey area. I'm not sure there would even be a benefit to playing the way I described.
 
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Jonathan Patterson
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I would argue that that the AP penalty is being generated by the Darkness, not the player, and so does not count towards loitering.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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You would be loitering.

But, in a practical situation - loitering is the best way to deal with the darkness falls trap.

In a 4x6 you actually can only get 2 treasure max (outside of the trap reward) since the only thing that provides treasure on a 4x6 is a hunting pack which is max 8.

Anyway, if i was on a 4x6 to have the best chance of disarming the trap before it hits 6 AP - there would not he a hunting pack (as it costs AP to kill them), not spend any AP and dig aggressively for the noncombat cards in order to get 3 runes before the darkness hits 6. (average is 3 runes in 10 rolls, 6 AP in 8-9, not counting NCA modifiers)

On a 4x12 I would just accept that the trap is going to hit 6 AP.
 
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Brian
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If there is a monster on the table it generates AP every HC, that AP does NOT prevent the Loitering penalty (Terror with 1000 legs has an AE stun, if he hits everyone with it... loitering triggers during the boss fight).

The trap generates AP and in the exact same way that AP doesn't prevent the Loitering penalty.

@Deadwolf - Loitering is an act wide penalty, so if you Loiter in the Darkness Falls trap you lose treasure in the next tile (and the one after that...). I would suggest trying to never trigger loitering.
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Jonathan Patterson
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Deadwolf wrote:
You would be loitering.

But, in a practical situation - loitering is the best way to deal with the darkness falls trap.

In a 4x6 you actually can only get 2 treasure max (outside of the trap reward) since the only thing that provides treasure on a 4x6 is a hunting pack which is max 8.

Anyway, if i was on a 4x6 to have the best chance of disarming the trap before it hits 6 AP - there would not he a hunting pack (as it costs AP to kill them), not spend any AP and dig aggressively for the noncombat cards in order to get 3 runes before the darkness hits 6. (average is 3 runes in 10 rolls, 6 AP in 8-9, not counting NCA modifiers)

On a 4x12 I would just accept that the trap is going to hit 6 AP.


The problem with the intinetional loitering strartegy is that the loitering penalty persists across the entire Act. If it was on the final tile, no big deal. If it was on your first, like in the intro story, that is a major issue.

Form page 21 of the rule book: "If the Heroes do not spend at least one AP in a Hero Cycle, they are considered to be Loitering. The maximum amount of treasure allowed by all tiles in an Act is reduced by one."
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Jeremy Steward
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hmm, okay. It is near impossible then to beat the darkness falls trap before hitting 6 AP. You would have to be extremely lucky.
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Geoffrey Lykken
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Deadwolf wrote:

In a 4x6 you actually can only get 2 treasure max (outside of the trap reward) since the only thing that provides treasure on a 4x6 is a hunting pack which is max 8.


As a note the game says you populate the board in the order of the symbols, so you decide on whether there is a hunting pack there or not and how large it is before you roll for the trap.
 
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John Thomasser
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Fade2Gray wrote:
Deadwolf wrote:
You would be loitering.

But, in a practical situation - loitering is the best way to deal with the darkness falls trap.

In a 4x6 you actually can only get 2 treasure max (outside of the trap reward) since the only thing that provides treasure on a 4x6 is a hunting pack which is max 8.

Anyway, if i was on a 4x6 to have the best chance of disarming the trap before it hits 6 AP - there would not he a hunting pack (as it costs AP to kill them), not spend any AP and dig aggressively for the noncombat cards in order to get 3 runes before the darkness hits 6. (average is 3 runes in 10 rolls, 6 AP in 8-9, not counting NCA modifiers)

On a 4x12 I would just accept that the trap is going to hit 6 AP.


The problem with the intinetional loitering strartegy is that the loitering penalty persists across the entire Act. If it was on the final tile, no big deal. If it was on your first, like in the intro story, that is a major issue.

Form page 21 of the rule book: "If the Heroes do not spend at least one AP in a Hero Cycle, they are considered to be Loitering. The maximum amount of treasure allowed by all tiles in an Act is reduced by one."


Ouch. That's not how I played it. Loitering seemed the surest way to disarm the darkness falls trap.
 
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Julian St. Pierre
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So, with Darkness Falls trap, kill hunting pack get of tile. Got it.
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Jonathan Patterson
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And all of this is why I am not a fan of how the the Darkness Falls trap was designed. I may very well simply re-role it any time we get it. I've discussed it with the folks over on the Unofficial FAQ thread and they are very sure of their description of its mechanics. It just feels brokenly hard and overly punishing for failure.
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J Larkin
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Deadwolf wrote:
hmm, okay. It is near impossible then to beat the darkness falls trap before hitting 6 AP. You would have to be extremely lucky.


Very. My group and I simply ignore the trap (as best we can) and leave the tile when the hunting party is cleared. The rewards are not worth the risk.
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Julian St. Pierre
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Seems like there are more fun traps to deal with.
 
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Jarad Bond
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I find it interesting that you must spend the +AP every round (avoid loitering) so that Darkness Falls is almost impossible with 2 players.

I think it is somewhat doable with four players, especially if you had a buff to increase D10 (brigand, archer, acolyte...) If you succeed your disarm roll, you do not have to take the damage or bump up the AP by one more. And you are very likely to get two to three chances every round if you have that many players.

So, fewer players = run past it. More players = hunker down and try to disarm it.

Not fair at all, but interesting nonetheless - if you play with 2, you'll never be able to disarm that thing (you won't even get the chance to try most of the time).
 
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Jeremy Steward
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When you look at the Falling Darkness and the Rolling Boulder trap(with 4+ heroes) they are pretty much impossible if you are spending AP. I feel that the traps that activate at 6 AP arent balanced for player generated AP. Also, if there is nothing on a tile except a trap, it doesnt make thematic sense that you would be loitering since there is nothing to spend AP on.

I almost feel like there is an exception rule we dont know about that says you are only loitering when there are active enemy figures on the board and you spend 0 AP. (Kind of like how we didnt know you dont factor movement with interrupts)
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Jarad Bond
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I'm not sure on the rolling boulder trap. I have a feeling that you're gonna get toasted with more players. But Darkness Falls is definitely easier with more players.

I ran some stats for Darkness Falls as written by the FAQ. I tallied up all possible outcomes, round by round, checking probabilities for how many heroes get to attempt it, and simulating an AP increase if a hero gets to attempt but fails, with 40% chance to disarm (TN:7). Then I threw in a +1AP increase per HC for very careful use of 1 AP by the heroes every round or +2 (if you had a monster type active and still wanted to avoid loitering). Due to my getting tired of fiddling with this, I have an "Iffy" success line where 3 disarms were accomplished, but AP went over 6 the same round (it's a methodology thing - you might or might not have been successful)

HEROES: 2 +1AP/HC +2AP/HC
------- -------
0 disarm(s): 31.51% 47.50%
1 disarm(s): 37.30% 37.60%
2 disarm(s): 21.25% 12.69%
3 disarm(s): 9.57% 1.57%
Iffy (6+ AP): 0.36% 0.63%
------- -------
Total: 100.00% 100.00%


HEROES: 3 +1AP/HC +2AP/HC
------- -------
0 disarm(s): 15.70% 27.20%
1 disarm(s): 28.63% 36.12%
2 disarm(s): 26.59% 23.04%
3 disarm(s): 26.17% 7.08%
Iffy (6+ AP): 2.92% 6.56%
------- -------
Total: 100.00% 100.00%


HEROES: 4 +1AP/HC +2AP/HC
------- -------
0 disarm(s): 9.75% 13.98%
1 disarm(s): 20.46% 31.51%
2 disarm(s): 24.08% 28.70%
3 disarm(s): 37.50% 18.51%
Iffy (6+ AP): 8.21% 7.31%
------- -------
Total: 100.00% 100.00%


HEROES: 5 +1AP/HC +2AP/HC
------- -------
0 disarm(s): 5.44% 7.91%
1 disarm(s): 17.49% 18.70%
2 disarm(s): 22.88% 28.95%
3 disarm(s): 44.66% 21.60%
Iffy (6+ AP): 9.52% 22.84%
------- -------
Total: 100.00% 100.00%


The disarm numbers are the chance that the party got exactly that many in one run from 0 - 6 AP. So, you'd want to look at 3 disarms for chance of success. This does not take into account more AP usage per HC, or use of any cards to help you disarm the trap.

I think I'm gonna be running past this trap.
 
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Matt Barnes
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I don't get why they chose Darkness Falls for the starter quest ... and it is in there twice.

I am playing with just my wife and I (2 heroes) and it is the most retarded trap ever. You get penalized for loitering, yet you can only disarm the trap if it triggers on you? And then you have to be ready with your non-combat action cards or you pretty much fail because you need a 7+.

Overall, this trap seems very poorly thought out, especially for low player counts. The simple fact that you could never even get the chance to disarm it due to dice rolling makes it not fun at all.

Overall, this is the move unimpressive thing I have encountered in the game so far. I have only done the first quest, I hope the other traps are much more fun.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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Because only players who are attacked by the trap can attempt to disarm it, player count doesn't actually matter with the darkness falls trap. With more players you will simply get to either 3 runes or 6 AP faster.
 
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Jarad Bond
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Deadwolf wrote:
Because only players who are attacked by the trap can attempt to disarm it, player count doesn't actually matter with the darkness falls trap. With more players you will simply get to either 3 runes or 6 AP faster.


It matters a great deal, actually. Rolling one of two faces on 2D6 is much more unlikely than rolling one of five faces on 5D6. And you waste an AP every HC, no matter what. So you at least have a chance when you're playing with 4 or 5.

The problem with 2 players is you can easily waste 3AP, just to even roll one of your faces to attempt to disarm, much less actually perform 3 disarms. With 5 players, you will almost be guaranteed a bunch of chances and a second round to try a bunch of times again.

I think it would balance much better if it scaled on the TN or number of successes based on the number of players. Like TN = 2 + #heroes, or #successful disarm rolls = 1/2 #heroes (rounded down/up)
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Jeremy Steward
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logris wrote:
Deadwolf wrote:
Because only players who are attacked by the trap can attempt to disarm it, player count doesn't actually matter with the darkness falls trap. With more players you will simply get to either 3 runes or 6 AP faster.


It matters a great deal, actually. Rolling one of two faces on 2D6 is much more unlikely than rolling one of five faces on 5D6. And you waste an AP every HC, no matter what. So you at least have a chance when you're playing with 4 or 5.

The problem with 2 players is you can easily waste 3AP, just to even roll one of your faces to attempt to disarm, much less actually perform 3 disarms. With 5 players, you will almost be guaranteed a bunch of chances and a second round to try a bunch of times again.

I think it would balance much better if it scaled on the TN or number of successes based on the number of players. Like TN = 2 + #heroes, or #successful disarm rolls = 1/2 #heroes (rounded down/up)


You don't waste an AP every HC if there are no enemies. 4x6 doesn't require any.

The darkness falls trap requires the same number of average disarm attempts no matter the player count. Higher player counts will simply get there sooner.
 
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Matt Barnes
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logris wrote:
Deadwolf wrote:
Because only players who are attacked by the trap can attempt to disarm it, player count doesn't actually matter with the darkness falls trap. With more players you will simply get to either 3 runes or 6 AP faster.


It matters a great deal, actually. Rolling one of two faces on 2D6 is much more unlikely than rolling one of five faces on 5D6. And you waste an AP every HC, no matter what. So you at least have a chance when you're playing with 4 or 5.

The problem with 2 players is you can easily waste 3AP, just to even roll one of your faces to attempt to disarm, much less actually perform 3 disarms. With 5 players, you will almost be guaranteed a bunch of chances and a second round to try a bunch of times again.

I think it would balance much better if it scaled on the TN or number of successes based on the number of players. Like TN = 2 + #heroes, or #successful disarm rolls = 1/2 #heroes (rounded down/up)

I just tried a test run with the trap with 2 heroes, and it took 6 HC's before I finally rolled any triggers ... and of course that one roll triggered it twice I had both non-combat action cards, so I succeeded on both ... but still need another success.

This needs to be completely reworked. The chance of the trap triggering needs to be the same for every hero, no matter how many there are. That is the first problem.

The second problem compounds on this in the fact that it is a straight 3x 7TN successes required to disarm it.

I think I am just going to change this completely and house rule it. Otherwise, there is literally no point in even attempting this with 2-3 players.

At the very least, it should be PlayerCount - 1 number of successes required. I like how the rulebook talks about "traps being a guaranteed way for heroes to get serendipity if disarmed". Too bad that "guarantee" is based on 100% RNG in some cases.

 
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Brian
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Ghedjennar wrote:
Deadwolf wrote:
In a 4x6 you actually can only get 2 treasure max (outside of the trap reward) since the only thing that provides treasure on a 4x6 is a hunting pack which is max 8.
As a note the game says you populate the board in the order of the symbols, so you decide on whether there is a hunting pack there or not and how large it is before you roll for the trap.
Wow... I hadn't noticed that in the legend... I knew for the larger tiles it was always trap before pack and assumed it was always the same order...

I am going to populate the tiles in the order the icons 'usually' appear in... which would be:
Quest, Trap, Lair, Pack, (Mini-)Boss, Treasure, Gold, Serendipity, Gold Hoard, Treasure Hoard, and finally Merchant.

(note that Serendipity appears before treasure in the only tile it appears on, but like the 4x6 I am considering that legend (4x12) to be wrong (treasure is processed during setup, serendipity when cleared)
 
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Jarad Bond
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Deadwolf wrote:

You don't waste an AP every HC if there are no enemies. 4x6 doesn't require any.


You do waste AP every cycle unless you want to lose your treasure for the rest of the Act. If you don't spend at least one, it's called Loitering. You waste 2 if you have an active type and you don't want to loiter.
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