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MERCS: Recon – Counter Threat» Forums » General

Subject: Hesitant to Back rss

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Christine Biancheria
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I was interested in this until I saw a ton of posts. about Myth saying that the rulebook was so bad that the game was unplayable without massive resort to online help, and even then, it is unclear.

What reason is there to think this one will be more workable? Myth got tons of money, and yet, it seems like they never bothered to blind-test the rules??

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Frank Franco
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Nothing. Same could happen here.
Such is the nature of kickstarter, it's a gamble.

Do you feel lucky?
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Andy Dunks
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They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.

They are also nice guys who truly want to do well by their customers, and so I trust them to do a good job.

Recon is a much simpler game than Myth (which is why I decided to stay with Myth).

People are a bit too spun up about the rules issues. The game is NOT unplayable out of the box, and is easily playable with a bit of help from the files from the forums. I've seen better rulebooks, but I've also seen worse.

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Donny Behne
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It's definitely a concern but, for the time being, MCG is working to rectify the issues. The hope is that it's a lesson learned and they will take the necessary steps wit Recon's rules to ensure it doesn't happen again. Hopefully enough people will continue pushing for extra eyes on the product and MCG can/will hire a technical editor to give the book a once over. Its a smart, hard working team of guys and I think they can turn things around.
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Erik Webb
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Atvar wrote:
They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.

They are also nice guys who truly want to do well by their customers, and so I trust them to do a good job.

Recon is a much simpler game than Myth (which is why I decided to stay with Myth).

People are a bit too spun up about the rules issues. The game is NOT unplayable out of the box, and is easily playable with a bit of help from the files from the forums. I've seen better rulebooks, but I've also seen worse.



+1

The rules issues are overblown.

The rulebook is actually written quite well. It just does not hold peoples hand the way most expected, nor were they expecting 67 pages of rules. Granted there are some rules that were accidentally left out, but that happens to the best of them.
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Atvar wrote:
They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.



Myth was not adequately play tested. There is nothing to suggest recon will be either.

By mercs own admission, the game is not up to standards including the rule book, so no, it is not well written.

OP is right to be concerned here. There is no evidence I've seen that they're doing anything differently. As nice as they are, they appear to be 'fix it later' guys, and as a result I'm also not pledging for recon.
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Greg
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I think a good way to help ensure that the Recon rulebook is better from that start, is for people to download the beta version of the rulebook and to look it over and highlight questions that they may have. A thread could be started called "Beta rulebook questions and suggestions for clarity" or something like that to help get the designer's attention.

The OP could open with a disclaimer for posters in that thread that the intention of the thread isn't to help design the game or come up with design ideas because that isn't our job and would clutter things up. The focus of the thread is for people to point out questions regarding rules and clarity issues, and possibly make suggestions in ways of making specific areas clearer.

For example: Regarding the Agent Phase, directives and the movement card.

Quote:
1. Draw agent Movement Card
The first thing that happens in the agent phase is the players draw an agent movement card.
Each card is unique in content, but is read and functions identically. An agent movement card
begins with a conditional movement statement, proceeds to the movement directives, then
finishes up with a conditional security level question that could add OPFOR reinforcements



Quote:
What is an agent?
An agent is an unknown entity. It is a heat signature communicated to the team from a
distant, ever-watchful satellite. Agents can be simple Employees or Security Forces: the
players won’t know until the agent and the MERCS share line-of-sight. When an agent
moves into LoS, it stops. Any further movement within a directive is ignored.



Question - Are the colored discs on the Movement Card each considered movement directives? If so, then as soon as soon as the first Agent moved during that directive becomes in LOS of a MERCS, then does that mean that the remaining Agents to be moved by that directive are ignored, per the "Any further movement within a directive is ignored" line above? If so, the perhaps a clearer reference of what exactly a movement direct is would help make it clearer, and also mentioning that once an Agent is in LOS of a MERCS, no other Agents for that directive will be activated that round.
 
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I think the biggest difference is that based on what I've seen so far, Recon is a boardgame "inspired" by the tabletop rules for MERCS miniatures. In that sense, the rules already exist - or at least the framework for the MERCS universe.

With three weeks to go I think there's plenty of wiggle room and I'd certainly be watching for more gameplay example videos, but as someone familiar with the TT rules, I haven't seen anything that has me nervous. Quite the opposite actually - I see Recon as something that might have more casual players consider making the leap to tabletop miniature gaming.
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J Ry
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Ill way in and say that they are not as clear, concise, or detailed as they should and could be.
But unplayable is a stretch.
Takes greater effort? Yes.

That said,
They are actively working, during recon, to sort out the myth issues.

Past that, it seems their play test groups let them down, from their side of the story anyway.

And recon doesn't seem to be as complex.
Not near as open.

And I see it as an introduction to the table top game.

A lot like AvP in that regard.

So I don't think recon issues will be as bad and Mercs IS learning from their mistakes.
And they are working now to sort out Myth when the cold be waiting till after recon.
I'd say that buys my faith.

For me, it's not an issue based on how the are handling it.
Now, it's just a matter of coming up with the funds.
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J Ry
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Mike,
Count me as one of those that this is bringing not the TT.
I had no interest in it before.
But learning more about the game, it has me now.
 
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Bobby Warren
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ropya wrote:
Ill way in and say that they are not as clear, concise, or detailed as they should and could be.
But unplayable is a stretch.
Takes greater effort? Yes.

Without the FAQ, questions answered, and community assistance it is unplayable. Okay, so you couple play something, but is it the game? Who knows? If it was just the rules, that would be one thing, but the cards which drive the story of the game also have issues.

That being said, they are working on a fix and I am currently a backer of this as well. It could change, but I doubt it.
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J Ry
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Bobby4th wrote:
ropya wrote:
Ill way in and say that they are not as clear, concise, or detailed as they should and could be.
But unplayable is a stretch.
Takes greater effort? Yes.

Without the FAQ, questions answered, and community assistance it is unplayable. Okay, so you couple play something, but is it the game? Who knows? If it was just the rules, that would be one thing, but the cards which drive the story of the game also have issues.

That being said, they are working on a fix and I am currently a backer of this as well. It could change, but I doubt it.


Good point, and I'd actually made this same argument elsewhere.

Are we playing Myth, as Myth should be?

That and I just realized I typed way for weigh.
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Silver Bowen
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Nothing. Same could happen here.
Such is the nature of kickstarter, it's a gamble.

Do you feel lucky?


Punk.

Well, do ya?
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George Shanahan
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I am a very enthusiastic backer of Myth and a somewhat less enthusiastic backer of Recon.I think the Myth rules issues are a touch overblown.It does take some research and work to play,but I found it to be a very good game that feels rather unique to me in the dungeon crawl genre.

My reticence about Recon is that there seems to be little that is exciting or distinguishing about the game.comparisons to games like Space Hulk,Tannhauser,and Gears of War abound.compared to Myth it feels flat simple and not particularly innovative.The beta rules are fourteen pages and the games seem to be one off affairs with no equipment or team development options.Myth abounds with exciting ideas,Recon seems to have incorporated few,if any of those.

I should note that if the idea is for Recon to be an intro to the TT game,at $120 plus adds,it seems an expensive proposition.I backed at the OPFOR level to get the TT decks and rule book which seems a better deal at $200,but again an awful lot of money for a game which appears to have little depth...
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John Middleton
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The rules for Mercs are a mess, filled with awful, awful fiction and often incoherant sentances. There are pages and pages of faqs for this game.

They are in the process of writng the second edition rulebook, and have apparently resolved not to work on first anymore. Take from this what you will.


I think the problem is not enough eyes looking over manuscripts and checking that everything is where it needs to be and is straight forward.


Two sets of crap rulebooks so far.

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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Nothing. Same could happen here.
Such is the nature of kickstarter, it's a gamble.

Do you feel lucky?

+1
 
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Jake Rose
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Atvar wrote:
They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.





And yet they were not smart enough to hold off on this project until they had Myth put to bed...

As a result they have not been answering questions or participating much in the Recon project, having to deal with Myth issues. They are putting forth a petulant tone lately when they do bother to communicate.

To assume they have learned the correct lessons from their mistakes is just that, an assumption. Actions are what matters. Maybe they do make Recon fantastic. That is one possibility.
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Greg
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jakecarol wrote:
Atvar wrote:
They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.







As a result they have not been answering questions or participating much in the Recon project, having to deal with Myth issues. They are putting forth a petulant tone lately when they do bother to communicate.



Well considering there are over 10,000 comments on the KS page, it probably is a pain in the ass to have to sift through all the bs and non-question rambling going on over there. Some people are using that KS page as a chat room and that does a disservice to those that have legit questions that get buried amongst the pages of crap. I don't know of many game companies that can have someone monitor the KS and BGG pages 24/7 for a month.
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Jake Rose
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They are not answering PMs nor answering all questions on update comments which are pretty easy to sort through either.

 
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Colin West
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jakecarol wrote:
They are not answering PMs nor answering all questions on update comments which are pretty easy to sort through either.



they're in the middle of their first major project, involving the shipment of some thousands of packages all across the us and soon the world. give them a break for not answering the same questions a million times. Have you ever had a job before? sometimes when you get swamped you prioritize your actions, right now their focus is obviously on getting as many packages out the door as possible. They have made it very clear they will be addressing all concerns as soon as they can.

just played myth for the first time last night, it takes some investment upfront to understand the basics but the pdfs theyve released have really helped clear up the rules.
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Jake Rose
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As a matter of fact, I've held jobs since I was 15 years old.

As a matter of fact they chose to start this project 'in the middle of their first major project, involving the shipment of some thousands of packages all across the us and soon the world.'

Their choice. And they are not handling it well.

In one of my jobs, there was a saying: The maximum range of an excuse is zero meters. What is sad in this case is folks seem to be excusing poor communications and business practices because Mercs happened to pull in almost a million bucks with Myth, so now they are busy.

Again, their choice.

Perhaps they want this one to be slower and earn less so they won't be overworked trying to fulfill it...
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Jake Rose
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I'll point out their lack of communications cost them two $1,500 backers this morning. It isn't just me who thinks it is an issue.
 
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Craig C
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Been doing a lot of watching and reading, and I think I'm in. The minis look cool, the OPFOR level with a couple add-ons looks like a great deal, not only for this game but for the TT as well, and it'd be nice to play a game where the "40,000" in its title doesn't refer to the amount of rules you need to keep track of.

There are a couple Recon gameplay aspects I'm not too excited about, but if they end up being a problem they can always be house-ruled.

My men are stacked up, and we're busting through the door.
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J Ry
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jakecarol wrote:
Atvar wrote:
They are promptly correcting their mistakes for Myth, and are undoubtedly smart enough not to put themselves in the same situation again.





And yet they were not smart enough to hold off on this project until they had Myth put to bed...

As a result they have not been answering questions or participating much in the Recon project, having to deal with Myth issues. They are putting forth a petulant tone lately when they do bother to communicate.

To assume they have learned the correct lessons from their mistakes is just that, an assumption. Actions are what matters. Maybe they do make Recon fantastic. That is one possibility.


Fair enough.

They did, however, wait until Myth was out the door before starting recon.
In fact they delayed it a couple times for that reason.

That combined with I think they believed the rulebook was was sound.
From their version of it, they were given the green light by testers.
Now, I'm not sure if play testers should have been responsible for for the rules layout and inclusion and if they would be more appropriate for an editor /writer.
But they did seem caught off guard at first.
But they are working on it.
I haven't been following recon closely, but it's a shame that it's effecting recon that way.

I think my they are good people with their hearts in the right place.
They may be fresh inexperienced and a touch on the touchy side at times, but I do believe they will do all in their power to sort everything out.
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Craig C
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jakecarol wrote:
I'll point out their lack of communications cost them two $1,500 backers this morning. It isn't just me who thinks it is an issue.


Or it could be those two backers figured out you essentially get a "starter kit" for each faction by buying Recon and AP plus a couple add-ons and didn't want to spend an extra $1250 for a painted miniature cosplay version of themselves. Hard to know for sure.
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