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Subject: Alternative to Loitering rss

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Jarad Bond
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Revised Loitering Alternative

Edit: Replaced the original post with my latest version.
Edit #2: After playing more, reduced bonus treasure slightly and added a rule that picking up treasure stops the drain that turn.

I'm trying to strike a balance between simple rules and keeping to the spirit of egging the Heroes on.

1. When a tile is set up:
a. Add 1-3 extra treasures tokens, depending on the size of the tile.
1: 4x6, 6x6
2: 12x12, 12x4, 12x6
3: 12x24

These cushion the treasure drain in the refresh cycle.

2. Every refresh cycle:
a. Discard a treasure from the Darkness board unless a hero picked up at least one treasure in the last Hero Cycle. Skip to 2b if they did.
If none are left on the board, discard a treasure that was placed on a tile, if any exist.*
b. If heroes did not spend a net positive AP from their cards, add an extra AP to the Darkness Meter.
(in addition to the regular increase due to active monster types)

3. When tile is cleared:
a. Gain all treasure left, automatically.** (not 1gp; 1 treasure draw)
b. Unlimited movement / move everyone to the exit edge.
c. Immediately set up the next tile.


* The side effect of discarding treasures that were dropped is to encourage heroes to get them picked up during combat. I inferred that the designers wanted you to do this because they made them all disappear when combat was over. So, this rule keeps the spirit of in-combat treasure grabs.

** This will prevent heroes from toying with the lone crawler until they get remaining treasures picked up.

Note: It turns out that there is not a lot of incentive to pick up treasure during the fight unless you happen to have extra move and it is on the way you were already going. It's really also true with the original loitering rules as well. This could be fixed by letting the treasures "rot" after two turns, but that would add too much complexity.
There's plenty of incentive to pick the treasures up now.
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Endevor Rovedne
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Your concerns are valid, i have them too.

But juste a quick note, the objective of this rule is also to limit the possibility to cycle you deck during the encounter, if there is 1 active monster type you could "search" trough your deck during 3 or 4 HC to look for the right card, it is part of the game to do it 1 or 2 times but not more i think.
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Guy McCann
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Or a MUCH simpler option is that the players, after clearing a tile, have unlimited movement but the Hero Cycle doesn't enter the Refresh Phase until populating the next tile.

This way you can use whatever cards you can from the current hand, but you can't cycle your deck like is feared by "loitering" in order to get a better hand for the next tile.
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Ryan Everly
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Quote:
Solution: Discard one treasure from the darkness board every refresh cycle that at least one lair is active. (just for this tile)


Actually... That isn't a bad idea. I might integrate that into my next game.
 
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Geoffrey Lykken
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The problem with Loitering is that it doesn't do what it's was designed to do. Instead it punishes you for a bad draw. Every time someone has loitered in our games it has been because they simply didn't get an action in their draw.

There need to be an exception for not having any actions in your hand or there needs to be a mulligan rule. Either or this is something that should have been caught not something we should have to home rule.
 
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Mark Taraba
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Ghedjennar wrote:
The problem with Loitering is that it doesn't do what it's was designed to do. Instead it punishes you for a bad draw. Every time someone has loitered in our games it has been because they simply didn't get an action in their draw.

There need to be an exception for not having any actions in your hand or there needs to be a mulligan rule. Either or this is something that should have been caught not something we should have to home rule.

Isn't it all heroes as a group need to spend at least an AP, not each hero needs to spend an AP?
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Geoffrey Lykken
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taraba wrote:
Ghedjennar wrote:
The problem with Loitering is that it doesn't do what it's was designed to do. Instead it punishes you for a bad draw. Every time someone has loitered in our games it has been because they simply didn't get an action in their draw.

There need to be an exception for not having any actions in your hand or there needs to be a mulligan rule. Either or this is something that should have been caught not something we should have to home rule.

Isn't it all heroes as a group need to spend at least an AP, not each hero needs to spend an AP?


Each Hero needs to spend an AP to avoid loitering.
 
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Mark Taraba
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logris wrote:

Prevent Heroes from Farming Lairs
Loitering does nothing to stop farming. Farming the lair means deliberately forcing the Darkness to activate to get a few more minions and then kill them for the remaining treasure. There is no need to force heroes to use AP. They're TRYING to use AP.

Solution: Discard one treasure from the darkness board every refresh cycle that at least one lair is active. (just for this tile)

Suddenly, there will be no reason to leave the lair alive. And quite a lot of incentive to get it destroyed in order to get some treasure from the minions.



An Edge Case
When heroes move to a new tile, there will be some opportunity where no lairs are active for heroes to "avoid the game" and sit around for as many turns as they want to, preparing. For the reasons stated above, Loitering does little to prevent this.

Solution: If no enemies are activated, discard one treasure token from the darkness board during the refresh cycle. (just for this tile)


Don't these punish the heroes on big tiles where they need to travel across the board or for putting a lot of lairs or hunting packs on the tile? I thought the point of being able to choose what you want to put on the board would be so you can decide how much treasure you wanted and how much risk you wanted to take.

I would change it to you lose a treasure in the refresh phase if there's a lair with no minions of that type on the board.
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doug woolley

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Mojobacca wrote:
Or a MUCH simpler option is that the players, after clearing a tile, have unlimited movement but the Hero Cycle doesn't enter the Refresh Phase until populating the next tile.

This way you can use whatever cards you can from the current hand, but you can't cycle your deck like is feared by "loitering" in order to get a better hand for the next tile.


Haven't played yet but this seems like a great solution.
 
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Mark Taraba
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Ghedjennar wrote:
taraba wrote:
Ghedjennar wrote:
The problem with Loitering is that it doesn't do what it's was designed to do. Instead it punishes you for a bad draw. Every time someone has loitered in our games it has been because they simply didn't get an action in their draw.

There need to be an exception for not having any actions in your hand or there needs to be a mulligan rule. Either or this is something that should have been caught not something we should have to home rule.

Isn't it all heroes as a group need to spend at least an AP, not each hero needs to spend an AP?


Each Hero needs to spend an AP to avoid loitering.


I just downloaded the rulebook PDF to double-check. It says "the heroes (as a party)" on page 17
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Jonathan Patterson
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Yep. The rule is 1AP per the group, not per hero. 1AP per hero would be too open to exactly the problem you mentioned. It would also make the -1 Threat of the first action slot near useless.
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Mathue Faulkner
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dbonzai wrote:
Mojobacca wrote:
Or a MUCH simpler option is that the players, after clearing a tile, have unlimited movement but the Hero Cycle doesn't enter the Refresh Phase until populating the next tile.

This way you can use whatever cards you can from the current hand, but you can't cycle your deck like is feared by "loitering" in order to get a better hand for the next tile.


Haven't played yet but this seems like a great solution.

This is the first solution that came to my mind as well. It doesn't address loitering when first entering a room full of inactive monsters though. It seems that Heroes shouldn't be able to refresh until they start to spend AP and/or monsters are activated when entering a room. There is still probably a little bit a wiggle room to game the system a bit there, but it's improved...

On this same note, is a tile cleared if there is still a trap present? And how would Mojobacca's variant need to be adjusted to account for traps?
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Josh Strickland
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mfaulk80 wrote:
dbonzai wrote:
Mojobacca wrote:
Or a MUCH simpler option is that the players, after clearing a tile, have unlimited movement but the Hero Cycle doesn't enter the Refresh Phase until populating the next tile.

This way you can use whatever cards you can from the current hand, but you can't cycle your deck like is feared by "loitering" in order to get a better hand for the next tile.


Haven't played yet but this seems like a great solution.

This is the first solution that came to my mind as well. It doesn't address loitering when first entering a room full of inactive monsters though. It seems that Heroes shouldn't be able to refresh until they start to spend AP and/or monsters are activated when entering a room. There is still probably a little bit a wiggle room to game the system a bit there, but it's improved...

On this same note, is a tile cleared if there is still a trap present? And how would Mojobacca's variant need to be adjusted to account for traps?


I'm pretty sure any Tile with an active (not-disarmed) Trap is NOT cleared. If for some reason you get to come back to the Tile with the Trap, it will reactivate.

EDIT: Not sure if the variant would need to be switched, the rules for Traps need to be addressed, or if there needs to be distinctions on what's left on the Tile when you leave it (different levels of Cleared). I think there's a simple solution here, but every time I think I have some elegant fix, problems with the Traps show up.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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First, the thing is that everyone is assuming that loitering is in effect at all time - but we dont actually know that for sure. Its not clear, Im trying to get an official answer. Id have to watch them again to be sure, but in the gameplay vids I know that they never take the loitering penalty in all the turns where the tile is clear and all the way through the 4x12.

As Ive said in other topics,

The point of loitering is to prevent stalling in order to cycle through your deck for a better hand when fighting.

My biggest issue with loitering is effect it has with the traps that activate at 6 AP (all of which are 4x6 traps)

My plan is to just make it so loitering is only in effect when monsters are on a tile.

Since packs are optional on 4x6, it makes those traps workable and 4x12 traps will still be hard but im okay with that. (I am planning on making the boulder trap 4x6 only tho)

And ill probably place a time limit to exit a cleared tile to prevent gaming.
 
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Jarad Bond
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taraba wrote:
logris wrote:

Prevent Heroes from Farming Lairs
Loitering does nothing to stop farming. Farming the lair means deliberately forcing the Darkness to activate to get a few more minions and then kill them for the remaining treasure. There is no need to force heroes to use AP. They're TRYING to use AP.

Solution: Discard one treasure from the darkness board every refresh cycle that at least one lair is active. (just for this tile)

Suddenly, there will be no reason to leave the lair alive. And quite a lot of incentive to get it destroyed in order to get some treasure from the minions.



An Edge Case
When heroes move to a new tile, there will be some opportunity where no lairs are active for heroes to "avoid the game" and sit around for as many turns as they want to, preparing. For the reasons stated above, Loitering does little to prevent this.

Solution: If no enemies are activated, discard one treasure token from the darkness board during the refresh cycle. (just for this tile)


Don't these punish the heroes on big tiles where they need to travel across the board or for putting a lot of lairs or hunting packs on the tile? I thought the point of being able to choose what you want to put on the board would be so you can decide how much treasure you wanted and how much risk you wanted to take.

I would change it to you lose a treasure in the refresh phase if there's a lair with no minions of that type on the board.


I was concerned about that as I thought this up, but you have ample opportunity to get 3-4 treasures with all the minions that are already going to be out with one or two lairs. And that is plenty from what my group has found. We are fairly conservative about how we play and have been able to get most of the treasure on 12x12 tiles, and we ended the first act with something like 25g, because we had tons of green cards and quest rewards and sold to a merchant at the end. I felt laden with treasure.

Dreadwolf wrote:
The point of loitering is to prevent stalling in order to cycle through your deck for a better hand when fighting.

My biggest issue with loitering is effect it has with the traps that activate at 6 AP (all of which are 4x6 traps)


As I was trying to state, the loitering rule does not prevent you from stalling. I agree that the traps are broken, but instead of relaxing the loitering rule for them (which might fix some, but break others), I am exploring the idea of getting rid of the loitering rule altogether.

This idea doesn't fix the traps either, but you got me to thinking... and I realized this loitering thing isn't actually accomplishing what it set out to do.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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Say, for example you are fighting a group of monsters. If there was no loitering, you could continually do nothing and wait for a better hand and the AP would only rise in the refresh phase. Loitering punishes that and for good reason. That is what I mean by stalling.

When there are no monsters on the tile, loitering doesnt make sense, and im sure we just dont have all of the information regarding loitering.
 
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Jarad Bond
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Endevor wrote:
Your concerns are valid, i have them too.

But juste a quick note, the objective of this rule is also to limit the possibility to cycle you deck during the encounter, if there is 1 active monster type you could "search" trough your deck during 3 or 4 HC to look for the right card, it is part of the game to do it 1 or 2 times but not more i think.


This is true. The ways of accomplishing the original objective are many, but in my proposed solution, the game is still progressing slowly (+AP every turn) because there is an active minion type.

But note that with loitering, you can do the same kind of thing when you enter a new tile, before you activate anything (spending the minimum +1AP per turn). The only difference between my proposed solution and loitering is that loitering has a [very] small chance of forcing you to start the battle early. If nobody in the group happened to get that move card to do a quick jog out of the lawn chair, you'd have to move up and lob an arrow.
 
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Jarad Bond
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Deadwolf wrote:
Say, for example you are fighting a group of monsters. If there was no loitering, you could continually do nothing and wait for a better hand and the AP would only rise in the refresh phase. Loitering punishes that and for good reason. That is what I mean by stalling.

When there are no monsters on the tile, loitering doesnt make sense, and im sure we just dont have all of the information regarding loitering.


Good point. Like a hunting pack, maybe. No treasure loss from lair and there's something active. Hrm...

So loitering is just forcing +2AP / HC in this case, but my solution is forcing +1AP.

I dunno. Seems like adding an extra AP would do the trick, but I don't want to have a bunch of convoluted rules to replace loitering, either. I'll have to think a little on this.
 
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Michael Cozzolino
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Traps are a little tricky.
I would say as long as you arn't stalling the trap to cycle your deck its not loitering. A lot of the 4x6 traps use movement. If you don't move you should get a loitering penalty. If not you could cycle thru the apprentice deck for example and play teleport over and over and the trap does nothing.
All of the others are start of HC or refresh phase to trigger. Those traps take care of the issue. Darkness falls for example would be the worst if you had a loitering penalty on top of the trap itself. You can only attempt to disarm if you roll your symbol. There could be several turns were you are waiting to disarm it.
 
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Jarad Bond
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Revised Loitering Alternative

I'm trying to strike a balance between simple rules and keeping to the spirit of egging the Heroes on.

1. When a tile is set up:
a. Use an extra treasure token to create a "wave" timer for treasure of 2-4 turns.
These cushion the treasure drain in the refresh cycle.

2. Every refresh cycle:
a. Reduce the treasure timer.
If timer is done, discard a treasure from the board instead.
If none left on the board, discard a dropped treasure not yet picked up.*
b. If heroes did not spend a net positive AP from their cards, add an extra AP to the Darkness Meter.
(in addition to the number of mob types active)

3. When tile is cleared:
a. Gain all treasure left, automatically.** (not 1gp; 1 treasure draw)
b. Unlimited movement / move everyone to the exit edge.
c. Immediately set up the next tile.

* The side effect of discarding treasures that were dropped is to encourage heroes to get them picked up during combat. I infer that the designers wanted you to do this because they made them all disappear when combat was over. So, this rule keeps the spirit of in-combat grabs.

** This will prevent heroes from toying with the lone crawler until they get remaining treasures picked up.

Note: once again, I'm not trying to fix broken traps. I want to stay true to the rules and encourage heroes to kill lairs and keep the game moving.
 
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Jarad Bond
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I played a test free-form quest game this way this evening. Instead of adding extra treasures, I used a treasure counter with one of the damage tracks to count-down from 4 spaces before I started removing treasure each tile.

Observations, 2p, I chose Apprentice and Brigand (3p if you count Marcus):

First, 4x6 trap tile was floor spikes with a hunting party of 4, no problem. Cleared in two rounds, got one treasure. We moved our minis to the edge just like that, took the liberty of one Hero Deck cycle and populated the next tile after resetting.

It was 12x12, double-lair with Marcus because I drew "For Glory..." quest. Moved up for one HC before I started attacking. I tried to get through the wall of monsters to kill at least one lair with my Brigand but didn't get the positioning right, so he was completely ineffective in the shadows most of this tile. Marcus and Apprentice were trying to aoe things down but weren't keeping up. By the time Brigand got to a lair, three treasures had dropped, I had picked up one, and the treasure-timer had finished. I then began discarding the darkness board treasures every turn.

I decided to stop after a couple more turns, because it was a losing battle at that point. With more heroes, we would have been able to get more of the treasure before it ran out. But we would have been able to get 3 treasures easy if I had played the brigand better. The double lair was punishing for 2 heroes + ally with only 1 green equipment between them. With 1 lair, we also would have been able to get more treasure.

If it were 1 lair, I would have ignored treasure drops and cleared the tile with a vengeance to avoid treasure disappearing (with the rule that you get all dropped treasure upon clear). With 2 lairs, there was no end in sight, so I really wanted to pick up the treasure to avoid it disappearing later and after running out of treasures, I would have focused on finishing the monsters efficiently.

With 1 lair, if treasure did turn into gold after clear, I would probably end up picking some up as we went and maybe toyed with a grubber for a round or two at the end to get the rest (but the diminishing treasure rule would make that very short-lived)

Next time, I might consider using the Darkness Meter to diminish treasure instead. It would scale better with more heroes, I think.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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So, loitering is indeed always in effect.

I actually dont have an issue with it most of the time. In fact, I think it is a nessesary rule.

I just dont like the interaction with traps.

Its actually easily remedied.

AP generated by traps count towards loitering.

-This way you dont have to worry about loitering during the 4x6 traps unless you actually do loiter and dont move or something.

-The AP is still progressing, which is the aim of the loiter rule.
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Jarad Bond
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First off, thanks for continuing to discuss this. I think there's something good that could come out of this. =)

Deadwolf wrote:
-The AP is still progressing, which is the aim of the loiter rule.


I disagree. AP progressing is a means to an end. I have been trying to do an analysis of the purpose of the loitering rule itself:

The Rulebook wrote:
Loitering prevents heroes from farming lairs and avoiding the game


I postulate that it does neither.
(Defining "avoiding the game" as continually cycling through your deck to get the card you wanted)

You can still easily kill monsters spawning out of the lair once you get things under control (which is the definition of farming a lair). Just need to save a move card every turn. Once in a blue moon, your party won't get that one move card, so you poke the lair for 1 dmg.

You can "avoid the game" when no monsters are activated in the same way (yes, there exists a small danger with loitering in place). When monsters ARE activated, loitering really doesn't have much effect, because they are progressing the AP meter and you aren't going to want to be wasting turns. The loitering rule pushes you a little bit more.

The extremely simple rule here is just add +1AP if the heroes didn't increase the Darkness Meter any. Done. It doesn't fix the shortcomings of loitering, but it is a one-for-one replacement that is easier to implement.

Bonus: the goofy effect of losing permanent treasure because you're all prone or drew a horrible hand is gone.

My extra rules were attempting to actually stop people from farming the lair or avoiding the game, as stated in the rulebook. And I threw in some extra common sense rules to avoid the tedium.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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Well, having played an official game tonight, I have to say that I really don't like the current Loitering rules. I flat out ignored it a couple of times because it didn't seem right that we should be punished for the cards we drew. Our first turn of the game, we couldn't move far enough to Attack or do anything that would use AP. Similarly, when we entered the 2nd tile, we were just too far away to do anything. It just seemed silly to be imposing harsh, Act persisting penalties simply because we didn't draw the right cards...

I don't think our group needs anything as significant as the OP's variant, but I also think a minor penalty would be okay since there can be some minor benefits from accidental Loitering.

Since I'm not concerned with intentional Loitering to game the system with our group, we may simply go with:
- When the Tile is cleared, Heroes have unlimited movement, but the Hero Deck Phase is skipped until the next Tile.
- If the group is unable to spend AP (usually due to the distance between the Heroes and Monsters), then the Hero Deck Phase is skipped and the AP is increased Normal + 1.
- AP induced by Traps prevents Loitering penalties.

(The Hero Deck Phase includes discard, hand draw, and Threat reduction)
 
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Jeremy Steward
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mfaulk80 wrote:
al Loitering to game the system with our group, we may simply go with:
- When the Tile is cleared, Heroes have unlimited movement, but the Hero Deck Phase is skipped until the next Tile.
- If the group is unable to spend AP (usually due to the distance between the Heroes and Monsters), then the Hero Deck Phase is skipped and the AP is increased Normal + 1.
- AP induced by Traps prevents Loitering penalties.


-I agree with traps preventing loitering penalties
-The unlimited movement is interesting and I don't have an issue with it but I think i will still stick with double MP as it allows for healing and the dynamics to actually moving to position.
-I'm not a fan of that skipping the hero deck phase part.
-I'm thinking something like a hero can play a card to an action space face-down and sideways (to distinguish from rage) to increase the AP by 1. It accomplishes the same thing and prevents you from to getting penalized for bad hands.

I think loitering is necessary, but in its current implementation, it does more harm than good imo.
 
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