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Subject: I WONDER..... rss

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Freddy Dekker
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Currently solo-ing Savannah and I've run into a number of questionS.

As I didn't like the historical scenario with everybody allready cooped up in town I went for the campaign.

Rather than hurry my British re-enforcementS into town, I kept them out with the idea of messing up the allied advance, thoes playing for time.
And of course I then went and got them all in trouble.

So I'm now at turn 6 and the nice weather we've been having has suddenly changed into a storm.
Weather: I'm new to that as it doesn't play a role in Monmouth.

So Storm means you can't make a strategical move and can only move 1/2 on roads.
That of course got my troops even more stuck as some of them went off road.

Now I wonder what this rule means for combat. I assume you can still fight but cannot advance after combat if the defender is off road, as you cannot move off road in this weather.

The combat result table left me with another question, as the attacker gets a +2 in the first 7 turns cause the defenses are not ready yet.
Apparenlty they didn't count on some nut keeping his troops out in the field when they designed this.
Seems a logical rule when it concerns an attack on the town, but for troops in the field ...... not so.

Finally militia question.
Now you can recognise militia cause the figure on the counters kneels.
But Savannah has a number of units that by there image are not militia, but logically you'd say they must be.

I mean these units that have the brown bar on top.
I wonder if this is an error in the game, {the did seem to make a few like the turn table and the hex numbers upside down....}


 
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Timothy Phelps
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The figure on the counter does not dictate whether or not a unit is militia - the color scheme does. See page 2 of the Exclusive Rulebook:

1.1 Colors:

British:
Regulars—Tan with red stripe
Germans—Tan with green stripe
Provincials—Tan with yellow stripe
Tory Militia—Tan with brown stripe

French
Metropolitan Regulars—Light Turquose with Turquoise stripe
Colonial Regulars—Light Turquose with no stripe
Mercenaries—Light Turquose with Aqua stripe
Colonial Militia—Light Turquose with teal stripe

American
Continentals—Sky blue with no stripe
Militia—Sky blue with Light blue stripe
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks Timoty,

Hm, I'm sure I've read it somewhere in the rules, or is this where Savannah is different from the series rules?

So leaves me with the question asto what is the difference between provincials and militia.

Can I compare it with militia being slightly trained locals and Provincials more like national guard units?
 
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Timothy Phelps
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I'm not sure what you mean about not being able to move off road during storms. Each unit has their movement points halved (rounded up), but there is no prohibition to moving off road. Also, a unit may always move 1 space as long as they are not prohibited from entering the terrain type of that space, even if they do not have enough movement points.

The +2 DRM you are referring to during the first 7 turns only applies attacks against British-help abatis, redoubts, or revetments. See 4.14 on page 8 in the Exclusive Rulebook.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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And here I was sure I read the rule book, but my enthousiasm about this series to get started may have made me read to quickly.

I was struggling a bit with the storm rule.

If I recally correctly it says in the chart strategic move probited, reg. movement 1/2

So I understood that to mean that you can not move off road {strategic move} as I saw an example of reg movement wich made me understand this was road movement.

So road movement in a storm.
Road movement means double quick so every two hexes is 1 MP.
now in storm as I explained it, you can only go 1/2 hex so One road hex takes 2MP.

Or am I completely lost now.
Currenlty deciding on buying more of the series, as I can get my hands on them. Either Germantown, or Pensalcola.. allthough temptation tells me to get both....


Thanks, appreciate your help.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:
Thanks Timoty,

Hm, I'm sure I've read it somewhere in the rules, or is this where Savannah is different from the series rules?

So leaves me with the question as to what is the difference between provincials and militia.

Can I compare it with militia being slightly trained locals and Provincials more like national guard units?


I'm pretty sure that all of the games use the color scheme of the counter to dictate unit type. The figure artwork is purely cosmetic and has no impact on game play (although Mark is very meticulous about getting them accurate, even releasing errata counters to correct them).

I'm not familiar with the historical difference between provincials and militia. I'm sure one of the Am Rev buffs on here could answer that for you.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:
And here I was sure I read the rule book, but my enthousiasm about this series to get started may have made me read to quickly.

I was struggling a bit with the storm rule.

If I recally correctly it says in the chart strategic move probited, reg. movement 1/2

So I understood that to mean that you can not move off road {strategic move} as I saw an example of reg movement wich made me understand this was road movement.

So road movement in a storm.
Road movement means double quick so every two hexes is 1 MP.
now in storm as I explained it, you can only go 1/2 hex so One road hex takes 2MP.

Or am I completely lost now.
Currenlty deciding on buying more of the series, as I can get my hands on them. Either Germantown, or Pensalcola.. allthough temptation tells me to get both....


Thanks, appreciate your help.


Okay I think I see the source of your confusion. You are thinking that strategic movement is moving off-road, and regular movement is moving on-road. This is actually backwards (almost).

Section 9.52 in the Series Rulebook explains strategic movement. To use strategic movement, you must conduct your entire movement along roads or tracks, and during no part of the movement (including the start space) may you be adjacent to an enemy unit. If all of these conditions apply, then your unit may move up to twice its printed movement allowance (effectively making each hex cost 1/2 MP). This is the type of movement that is prohibited during storms.

All other movement (whether by road or not) is considered regular movement. For regular movement, moving along a road costs 1 MP regardless of the underlying terrain type. For moving off-road, the cost is dictated by the Terrain Effects Chart. During storms, this type of movement (whether on-road or off-road) is restricted by halving each unit's MP value (rounding up).

I hope this helps clear things up.

I own all of the games in the series. I highly recommend them.


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Freddy Dekker
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Sure does.

I really like the series, how it gives you all the means the generals had back than at the time and place they had them and lest you screw things up from there.

Pitty not all titles are available.
I think Guildford is out of print and oh, what the other one..... can't remember.

I would like for them to use the same system for ACW games, or do you think that won't work?

edit: hold on, I just spotted you are a labyrinth fan, another game I'm currently considering.
Not my kind of period I'm interested in but as people seem so enthousiastic besides I like something different from time to time.
Am about to post on the appropiate thread to go for either labyrinth or twilight struggle.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Timothy,

Finally found a bit of time to get back to the game and check the sections you mentioned.

So strategic is on road all the way.
Regular is any other movement, to put it simple.

So than I got back to the storm chart and I must say it seems a bit illogical.

Apparently you can not move along a road if you stay on that road.

Hmm... hold on.... ah!! now I see...

I was going to say that it was not logical cause with regular movement you CAN move along that same road as long as you get off it before you use all MP, which makes it regular movement.

But than I realised that with strategic movement you get double MP.
while using reg. movement you'd only be able to travel half that distance along the same road.

[hm suddenly I wonder if I've actually not overlooked this detail in previous games....]

So lets see if I got this now:

If I use strategic movement I can travel along a road and with and MP of 4 travel the distance of 8 hexes.

Now with regular movement, I would be able to travel 4 hexes on that same road provided the last hex makes me end up next to an enemy. [which is prohibited with road movement]

If not even less cause I'd have to venture off road and my journey on the road depends on the cost of that last hex.
Forrest would cos 1 1/2 and so I could only travel 2 hexes on the road.

That's all according to the rules isn't it?

Now in stormy weather, you can't travel on that road at all.
Well you can, but you have to use the regular movement vallue and ofcourse get off road at the end. (I guess taking shelter from the elements}

now on the chart it says 1/2 MP.
does that mean that I simply double the cost of any hex?

So a road hex would cost 2MP, a forrest hex would cost 3 etc.

Thanks for enlightening me.

now as for the kneeling militia, I see that we both were right, as the rulebook says american militia is portrayed kneeling, not so the British, which may cause confusion.










 
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Timothy Phelps
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Freddy,

I think you've still got a bit of confusion regarding the difference between strategic movement and normal movement. Not all "road-only" movement is considered strategic movement. Any movement where you are simply spending your unit's normal amount of MP is considered normal movement, regardless of what type of terrain is involved (including roads). Therefore, during stormy weather, you are certainly able to stay on a road. There is no need to "get off road at the end".

Strategic movement is simply a special "bonus" type of move that you can conduct if you meet all of the criteria. Those criteria are:

- Your entire movement must be along roads and/or tracks (including the start and end spaces).
- You may not at any point during your movement be adjacent to an enemy unit (including the start and end spaces).

If these conditions are met, then the "bonus" you get from strategic movement is that your unit's printed MP is doubled. Since movement along roads and tracks is normally always 1MP per hex, this can also be thought of as reducing the movement cost to 1/2MP per hex along roads.

Regarding the movement point reduction during storms, the "1/2 MP" designation on the chart means to halve each unit's MP (rounding up), not to double the cost of each terrain hex. Although they may sound the same, there could be differences introduced because of the rounding. For example, if a unit has 3MP, they would be reduced to 2MP. This would still allow that unit to move into hex that costs 2MP to enter. If you did it the other way, then the unit would not be able to enter that same hex because it would cost 4MP and he only has 3MP. So do not double the cost - halve each unit's MP (rounding up).
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Freddy Dekker
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Yes you are right, for some reason it would not sink in that you can actually stay on a road with normal movement.
I had myself convinced I was forced to go off road to obide by the rules.shake

Regarding movement point reduction, indeed it does sound the same and this is again something I missunderstood.
I understood it to mean that you had to pay double for terrain.

So, entering a forrest would not cost you 1 1/2 but 3.

but per your example a 3MP unit becoming 2, yeah I can how that would be different.
You are indeed being very educational I don't get why I keep reading it the wrong way...shake

wich than brings me to something I do different and probably wrong aswell.

when you calculate DRM you do you minus and plus thing and THAN you throw the die.

[which reminds me, should me game come with 3 dice?]

Now what I do is throw the dice first and than do the DRM,s
I feel it's easier to do it that way, is there any objection agains this?
 
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Timothy Phelps
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I will have to check my copy, but I believe it did come with 3 dice.

If you are playing solo and not using the tactics chits, then I see no problem with rolling the die first and then calculating your DRMs. If you are using the tactics chits and especially when playing against another person (or potentially other people in the case of Savannah), then you should definitely roll after all DRMs are computed since knowing the die roll in advance would influence the players' choice of tactics chit.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Today I'm moving on to the S&B part of the game, another new thing to me.

Oh by the way, just noticed that the bars on the turn track apparently mean something aswell. As clearly noted on the map.shake but ofcourse I've been to busy with the rule books.
Good thing I've not seen much combat as yet.

Now it's easy to remember when the BS part of the game starts as there is this icon on the turn track, so you know you can place one marker.

Now I sort of expected the rules to say that in order for the French to build in a hex you actually need French troops present, but apparently not so. Makes things easier but the logic is down the drain.

so 4.4 one construction marker can be placed, okay easy enough.


Now turn 10 shows an 'A' on het track and I was wondering what that means.
I was assuming it had something to do with the letters on the map, but sofar I've been unable to find any reverence to it.

4.4 -2 turn 10 the marker is flipped {by the way I assume you are suposed to use the marker that is different?} and alligned.. so you are entrenching just one hex side?

now things become complicated.

3.3-2 up to three construction markers can be placed,

But on the map behind 'A' it says 1 hex may be build
This is confusing and seems a contradiction.
Unless.... they mean to say that you can flip the marker from the previous turn.
That is confusing, so that means that placing the 'dig' marker is not seen as building, but flipping it means build.
Hm, did I figure that out correctly or....?

4.4 again: the first one placed must extend from the original siege work hex.
So this means you have to place it next to the first marker you placed.
right?
but in 4.4-4 it says the hexes do not need to be connected.

And then there is on other thing that a marker may be placed in 'any' hex at 4 hexes distance.
So this means there are 3 hexes between it and the perimeter of Sannah.

but later on it than talks about hexes that may extend no more than 1 hex closer to Savannah.
but at the same time you must obeys rule 1 wich talks about the 4 hex distance.
It is a bit confusing to say the least.


p.s this stacking limit concerning the negroes is also a bit of a pest.
constantly having to check which one they are allowed near to and which not...




 
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Freddy Dekker
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I've had a combat situation of which I'm not sure I played it correctly.

Contrary yo what most people would do, I've not moved all my re-enforcements into Savannah.
I like to be able to move about a bit and doing so would have meant my waiting until the allied attack before the British could do anything interesting. BORING!

So part of my guys moved into the woods.
2nd Georgia didn't seem to be of much use there, I reckon they got distracted and started hunting rabbits, allthough there are rumours of a moonshine still.

Anyway, my Florida troops, being light infantry were of more use and made it all the way to the Beaulieu plantation road, where a loan French artillery unit was Sweating and cursing, trying to drag that gun along the road in this nice weather.

Seemed like easy pickings - yeah I know beginners mistake- cause as probably anyone here would have realised the defensive artillery fire was devastating and made my guys retreat into the woods before they got off a shot.

Now from how I understand it, the result means that the defending artillery must make a moral check.
Seems a bit weird, cause didn't they just win?

They failed wich mean the must retreat.
But of course in this case that means they'll move on more down that road in the direction they wanted to go anyway.

Wonder if that is how it's supposed to be, or if I made another of my numerous errors.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:
I've had a combat situation of which I'm not sure I played it correctly.

Contrary yo what most people would do, I've not moved all my re-enforcements into Savannah.
I like to be able to move about a bit and doing so would have meant my waiting until the allied attack before the British could do anything interesting. BORING!

So part of my guys moved into the woods.
2nd Georgia didn't seem to be of much use there, I reckon they got distracted and started hunting rabbits, allthough there are rumours of a moonshine still.

Anyway, my Florida troops, being light infantry were of more use and made it all the way to the Beaulieu plantation road, where a loan French artillery unit was Sweating and cursing, trying to drag that gun along the road in this nice weather.

Seemed like easy pickings - yeah I know beginners mistake- cause as probably anyone here would have realised the defensive artillery fire was devastating and made my guys retreat into the woods before they got off a shot.

Now from how I understand it, the result means that the defending artillery must make a moral check.
Seems a bit weird, cause didn't they just win?

They failed wich mean the must retreat.
But of course in this case that means they'll move on more down that road in the direction they wanted to go anyway.

Wonder if that is how it's supposed to be, or if I made another of my numerous errors.


Defensive Artillery Fire targets a single unit in the hex, and only that one unit is affected by the result. You ignore any reference to other units in the hex (i.e. they would not make a morale check). See 11.3 STEP 3 in the Series Rulebook. Nothing ever happens to the attacking artillery unit (they would not be considered the defender in this case anyway). Since the result always only applies to the single unit targeted, there is no need to distinguish between attacker and defender.

 
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Freddy Dekker
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hm, so during defensive fire, spite the name, that artillery is seen as the attacker.
Hm... seems logical.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:
Now turn 10 shows an 'A' on the track and I was wondering what that means.
I was assuming it had something to do with the letters on the map, but so far I've been unable to find any reference to it.

sagitar wrote:
But on the map behind 'A' it says 1 hex may be build


I see you found the reference to it.

sagitar wrote:
4.4 -2 turn 10 the marker is flipped {by the way I assume you are supposed to use the marker that is different?} and aligned.. so you are entrenching just one hex side?


You are free to choose any of the markers for the initial placement.

sagitar wrote:
Now things become complicated.


Well, let's see if we can uncomplicate them.

sagitar wrote:
3.3-2 up to three construction markers can be placed,

But on the map behind 'A' it says 1 hex may be build
This is confusing and seems a contradiction.
Unless.... they mean to say that you can flip the marker from the previous turn.
That is confusing, so that means that placing the 'dig' marker is not seen as building, but flipping it means build.
Hm, did I figure that out correctly or....?


Correct. Placing the markers is designating where they will be built. Flipping them over is building them.

sagitar wrote:
4.4 again: the first one placed must extend from the original siege work hex.
So this means you have to place it next to the first marker you placed.
right?
but in 4.4-4 it says the hexes do not need to be connected.


4.4-4 does not say the hexes do not need to be connected - it says the hexsides do not need to be connected. It is possible to have markers in adjacent hexes and to orient those markers such that the hexsides being entrenched do not connect.

My understanding in regards to adjacency is that the first marker you place on Turn 10 must be adjacent to the initial marker placed on Turn 9. The other two markers placed on Turn 10 may be placed anywhere as long as you abide by the other restrictions given. Likewise, on Turn 11 the first marker placed must be adjacent to a previously completed siege work hex (i.e. next to a marker that has already been placed and flipped). The other one is free to be placed anywhere, again abiding by the other restrictions.

sagitar wrote:
And then there is another thing that a marker may be placed in 'any' hex at 4 hexes distance.
So this means there are 3 hexes between it and the perimeter of Savannah.

But later on it then talks about hexes that may extend no more than 1 hex closer to Savannah.
but at the same time you must obey rule 1 which talks about the 4 hex distance.


The "4 hexes distant" limitation listed in step 1 only applies to the initial marker placed on Turn 9. In the other steps, when it says "The limitations listed in step 1 still apply", it is referring to the bullet list of restrictions. So on Turn 10, they only need to be at least 3 hexes distant, and Turn 11 at least 2 hexes distant.

sagitar wrote:
It is a bit confusing to say the least.


Hopefully less so now.

sagitar wrote:
p.s this stacking limit concerning the negroes is also a bit of a pest.
constantly having to check which one they are allowed near to and which not...


If it's any consolation, I'm sure they didn't like it much either.
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:
hm, so during defensive fire, spite the name, that artillery is seen as the attacker.
Hm... seems logical.


In a sense yes. But like I said, since you ignore all references to attacker and defender when resolving the combat result, it is irrelevant.
 
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Freddy Dekker
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Thanks
Still not clear about the A, B, and C onthe map.

I don't think it means you have toplace entrenchements on these I wondef what they are for.
 
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Timothy Phelps
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sagitar wrote:

Thanks
Still not clear about the A, B, and C on the map.

I don't think it means you have to place entrenchments on these I wonder what they are for.


See the note at the beginning of 4.4:

[Note: the printed siege works hexsides are used in the Historical
Scenario, and represent the actual location of the French
approaches.]


So if you wanted to match the historical locations when playing the Campaign scenario, you would do your A, B, and C builds in those locations.

 
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Freddy Dekker
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Aha!
Thanks again, I can't understand why I keep,overlooking those things...shake
 
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