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Subject: Rating games on BGG - an impromptu survey rss

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Barry Hood
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Hi all, following a request I'm currently creating some microbadges for people who like to rate games on BGG (or RPGG/VGG for that matter). The requester liked the idea of tiers of badges for number of games rated, and I'd like to canvas some general opinion as to where to set the tiers.

This is what I have so far, these numbers were just arbitrarily plucked out of the air for the purposes of making the designs:

Copper - 100+ games rated
Silver - 250+ games rated
Gold - 500+ games rated
Platinum - 1000+ games rated
Herculean - 2000+ games rated
Ultimate - 5000+ games rated

(If you'd like to discuss the designs rather than the tiers, feel free to drop by the microbadge review thread so that those discussions are kept in one place)

Now, my feeling is these are probably pitched a little too high for most people. The other thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, you can only see the games in your collection that you've rated, which makes keeping track of the numbers much more difficult (since it wouldn't be a system awarded badge unfortunately).

Here are my alternative proposals for lower tiers:

A: Copper(25), Silver (50), Gold (100), Platinum (250), Herculean (500), Ultimate (1000)

B: Copper(50), Silver (100), Gold (250), Platinum (500), Herculean (1000), Ultimate (2000)

And of course, the original:

C: Copper(100), Silver (250), Gold (500), Platinum (1000), Herculean (2000), Ultimate (5000)

Apologies for the wordy intro, but if you could please take a second to vote on your preferred option below it would really help a fellow geek out!


Poll
Please help me to decide the tier levels for my games rating badges
A: Copper(25), Silver (50), Gold (100), Platinum (250), Herculean (500), Ultimate (1000)
B: Copper(50), Silver (100), Gold (250), Platinum (500), Herculean (1000), Ultimate (2000)
C: Copper(100), Silver (250), Gold (500), Platinum (1000), Herculean (2000), Ultimate (5000)
D: These are all still too high!
      156 answers
Poll created by delinear


Note there is no "these are all too low" option - that's deliberate as I wouldn't really be comfortable going even higher (given people would need to purchase these themselves, making them too unattainable would probably kill all incentive to use them).


Alternatively if you have any other thoughts or suggestions feel free to comment below.

Thanks for your time!
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Man thinks, the river flows.
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    I realize that these are tiny little incentives, but I hate to see any incentive at all for quantity when it comes to board game ratings. I think it sends the wrong message.

    Who can effectively rate 5000 games?

             S.


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C Bazler
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Would you also consider making a MB for game comments? It is easy enough to rate a game after a single play (heck, some people rate without playing at all!) but it requires much more effort to take the time to write a comment about a game. I've slowly been trying to comment on all my games rated, yet for all my effort I'm a little disappointed that my comments don't count as "contributions" on BGG.
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Man thinks, the river flows.
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    Comments are where you'll find some of the best content on this site. Don't underestimate how many people are reading there.

    I'd much rather see geekbadges awarded for amount of content (i.e., word count) in comments than amount of ratings issued. Better would be if comments were thumb-able -- you'd see much more traffic on these back pages of the site and you could get a better idea of who's putting up the good stuff (and who's actually played the game a few times instead of just throwing a "7" in the ratings box).

             S.
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1603-1714
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The problem with rewarding for comments is that people could spam comments, making the feature much less useful. I guess word count could make up for that somewhat, but I don't know if it's even possible or if it would solve the problem of spamming. The microbadge awarded for posting on BGG is just based on the number of posts, not the word count or the quality of those posts.

On the other hand, I don't have a problem with awarding microbadges for game ratings. That's how we give games a rank on BGG and, even if it is somewhat flawed, more ratings would have the potential to make these rankings more accurate. I know there are many games I've played and just have never taken the time to rate. Perhaps a microbadge would give me more incentive to rate them.
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Barry Hood
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As a microbadger I'm impartially filling a request, but personally I agree I find comments more helpful in choosing games than ratings. There aren't any "I've commented X games" badges but there are these very nice ones from garion:

mb mb

Edit: And just to clear up any concerns about these incentivising rating spamming and thus affecting rating quality - they won't be system awarded, they're going to be for purchase for those who want one. Since purchase badges rely on the honour system, you can technically buy yourself the "ultimate" rater badge without ever having rated a single game, so it's not really an incentive to spam ratings (plus you have to spend your own 8gg to get one). This is the way the logged play (mb) badges work and it seems to act as a good disincentive to abuse of the system.
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Daniel Schwartzkopf
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delinear wrote:
As a microbadger I'm impartially filling a request, but personally I agree I find comments more helpful in choosing games than ratings. There aren't any "I've commented X games" badges but there are these very nice ones from garion:

mb mb

Edit:
And just to clear up any concerns about these incentivising rating spamming and thus affecting rating quality - they won't be system awarded, they're going to be for purchase for those who want one. Since purchase badges rely on the honour system, you can technically buy yourself the "ultimate" rater badge without ever having rated a single game, so it's not really an incentive to spam ratings (plus you have to spend your own 8gg to get one). This is the way the logged play (mb) badges work and it seems to act as a good disincentive to abuse of the system.


Emphasis added
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Katherine Boag
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delinear wrote:
The other thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, you can only see the games in your collection that you've rated, which makes keeping track of the numbers much more difficult (since it wouldn't be a system awarded badge unfortunately).


Rating a game adds it to your collection, but not to your owned games. I try to rate all games that I have played, and I have a collection of 300 or so, but only 50 or so games owned. If you go to your profile and click on 'All', it should show every game you have rated.

On checking this for myself my collection seems to include games I have tagged as well - can anyone comment whether games that have been rated but not tagged are included? I tag every game I have played and only rate games I have played, so if my collection is showing tagged games but not rated games then my comments above don't apply. Edit: checked this by untagging a game, my collection appears to include games that have been rated but not tagged so my points above stand.

Edit 2: for clarity.
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Barry Hood
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Kactus04 wrote:
delinear wrote:
The other thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, you can only see the games in your collection that you've rated, which makes keeping track of the numbers much more difficult (since it wouldn't be a system awarded badge unfortunately).


Rating a game adds it to your collection, but not to your owned games. I try to rate all games that I have played, and I have a collection of 300 or so, but only 50 or so games owned. If you go to your profile and click on 'All', it should show every game you have rated.

On checking this for myself my collection seems to include games I have tagged as well - can anyone comment whether games that have been rated but not tagged are included? I tag every game I have played and only rate games I have played, so if my collection is showing tagged games but not rated games then my comments above don't apply. Edit: checked this by untagging a game, my collection appears to include games that have been rated but not tagged so my points above stand.

Edit 2: for clarity.


I tried this earlier too, I'd assumed collection meant owned games, thanks for the confirmation
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Nathan
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delinear wrote:
Kactus04 wrote:
delinear wrote:
The other thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I can tell, you can only see the games in your collection that you've rated, which makes keeping track of the numbers much more difficult (since it wouldn't be a system awarded badge unfortunately).


Rating a game adds it to your collection, but not to your owned games. I try to rate all games that I have played, and I have a collection of 300 or so, but only 50 or so games owned. If you go to your profile and click on 'All', it should show every game you have rated.

On checking this for myself my collection seems to include games I have tagged as well - can anyone comment whether games that have been rated but not tagged are included? I tag every game I have played and only rate games I have played, so if my collection is showing tagged games but not rated games then my comments above don't apply. Edit: checked this by untagging a game, my collection appears to include games that have been rated but not tagged so my points above stand.

Edit 2: for clarity.


I tried this earlier too, I'd assumed collection meant owned games, thanks for the confirmation


You can also add to your collection without owning or rating. This way I have several games on there marked simply "Want to play" to let people know I would be up for trying them out if they bring them to our group. I add games whenever I play them also, regardless of ownership (I leave it blank if I don't own it, or mark it "Wishlist" or "Want in Trade") so I can always see what I have played and at some point rate and comment it. The collection tool is probably the thing I use the most on here.

I just need 800 GG so I can buy 100 microbadges in one day. Then I will get all the play count microbadges and other minor achievements. I may get this rating one once it is approved though. It shows if your ratings are worth looking at, could be quite useful. If I saw someone had the rating one and comments one then I might add them as a Geekbuddy for the Analyse tool.
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Josiah Fiscus
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Polls like this are problematic. The highest tier is winning with 44% of the vote. But what that really means is that 56% of people think that tier is too high.
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Barry Hood
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happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic. The highest tier is winning with 44% of the vote. But what that really means is that 56% of people think that tier is too high.


That's true - I plan to let it run for a few more days and then use it to inform my final decision, i.e. I'll try and perform a qualitative rather than quantitative assessment taking into account the survey, comments received, other correspondences on the matter, etc.

I know that no matter what I choose it will still be an arbitrary number and there will always be lots of people who disagree with it, what I'm hoping to arrive at are a set of tiers that are at least in the right ballpark for a reasonable number of those who expressed an opinion.

I also have to take into account things like the limitations of the design (in terms of space available for instance), and the fact that I imposed a cap, otherwise the best option right now would lie somewhere between B and C - in any event I feel a bit more happy about making a decision now than I did when I was the only data point
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic.
All voting systems are problematic.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627581.400-electoral...
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delinear wrote:
I also have to take into account things like the limitations of the design (in terms of space available for instance), and the fact that I imposed a cap, otherwise the best option right now would lie somewhere between B and C

I'd start with B, and maybe stretch the upper reaches a bit to come closer to C. 50-100-250-500-1500-3000, maybe? Or even 50-100-250-1000-2500-5000? Gold tends to be the regular cap, which you need to put quite a bit of effort in for (which I think fits very well at 250; I know I'm still far from reaching 250 rated games myself, after some five years of playing games seriously and rating everything I've played) - so the level beyond that really can be put quite a bit higher as far as I'm concerned.
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C Bazler
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Personally, I like that the numbers in C correspond exactly to the badges awarded for game collections, which seems to make sense (especially if your games rated can easily be higher than games considered "owned").
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Katherine Boag
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Thunkd wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic.
All voting systems are problematic.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627581.400-electoral...


Yes.
 
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Det var bara en hake...
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happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic. The highest tier is winning with 44% of the vote. But what that really means is that 56% of people think that tier is too high.


Or in other words, the mode is C, but the median is B. So it comes down to which of those is chosen as the "result" of the poll.
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Tony Ackroyd
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Thunkd wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic.
All voting systems are problematic.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627581.400-electoral...

Fascinating article, but it doesn't speak to rating systems.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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1000rpm wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
Polls like this are problematic.
All voting systems are problematic.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627581.400-electoral...

Fascinating article, but it doesn't speak to rating systems.
It speaks to polls where you vote for a particular option. Neither I nor the person I quoted mentioned rating systems. By the way, your comment doesn't speak to world peace.
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Tony Ackroyd
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Agreed. It was bang on about the poll in this thread. I was trying to apply the thinking to some of the wider comments here about devaluing ratings, on thinking about BGG ratings in general and, personally, to some of the poll systems I run.

I wasn't being critical, just trying to apply that awesome analysis to wider poll/rating systems on the site. My viewpoint is probably skewed by what I spend most of my time doing here.
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Barry Hood
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Thanks to anyone who did vote. In the end I went with the version that most aligned to the collection numbers and these are now approved.

Even though B and C were very even throughout, I took into account that nobody could vote higher than C and it was consistently slightly ahead, and splitting the difference wouldn't have been such a neat solution.

It was all very useful information in making the final decision, whichever way you may have voted
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delinear wrote:
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Thanks to anyone who did vote. In the end I went with the version that most aligned to the collection numbers and these are now approved.

Even though B and C were very even throughout, I took into account that nobody could vote higher than C and it was consistently slightly ahead, and splitting the difference wouldn't have been such a neat solution.

It was all very useful information in making the final decision, whichever way you may have voted

Interesting. I would have thought that given the discussion about voting systems you'd have noted that the poll wasn't so much flawed in not offerring higher options, but that it was splitting the vote for the lower options.

57.8% of voters voted it to be lower than option C. I would have thought that would logically point to B being the best option.

However, you sound like you've got some collection size data, so that is probably more useful than the poll result.
 
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Barry Hood
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1000rpm wrote:
delinear wrote:
mb mb mb mb mb mb mb

Thanks to anyone who did vote. In the end I went with the version that most aligned to the collection numbers and these are now approved.

Even though B and C were very even throughout, I took into account that nobody could vote higher than C and it was consistently slightly ahead, and splitting the difference wouldn't have been such a neat solution.

It was all very useful information in making the final decision, whichever way you may have voted

Interesting. I would have thought that given the discussion about voting systems you'd have noted that the poll wasn't so much flawed in not offerring higher options, but that it was splitting the vote for the lower options.

57.8% of voters voted it to be lower than option C. I would have thought that would logically point to B being the best option.

However, you sound like you've got some collection size data, so that is probably more useful than the poll result.


Indeed, it was always going to be highly subjective on my part. A couple of other factors in play were that these numbers more closely aligned with the original request I was fulfilling, and I didn't want it to look like I was pitching the numbers artificially low in order to flog a few more badges.

Given more time it would have been interesting to run another poll on the basis of the first one with finer grained voting options based around the most popular results... but I didn't want to try everyone's patience (well, not any more than usual)
 
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If you post on this thread when they're available, I'll buy one.
 
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When I get to 1K ratings, I'll buy one.
 
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