Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
20 Posts

Cthulhu Wars» Forums » Rules

Subject: Shriveling and cost modifiers rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
David Kotsonis
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
In the recent Azathoth video, Sandy described a neutral spellbook wherein you prebattle kill an enemy unit and they get back power equal to its cost. How does this interact with the Gnoph-Keh's cost equal to the number of Gnoph-Keh in your reserve, or with Black Goat's reduced unit costs post-Thousand Young, or other cost modifying abilities I may have forgotten?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arthur Petersen
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
it's your sister Cheryl!
badge
I work for Petersen Games. AMA
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe it is the current cost (whatever it would cost at that moment if the monster's owner could summon it right then).

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Kotsonis
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
OK; for the Gnoph-Keh example, would that calculate before or after Wind Walker puts it into their reserve? Since, e.g., if they have all their Gnoph-Kehs on the board and you shrivel one, if the calculation is done before the kill is applied, they get zero power, and if afterwards they would get one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
chris ward
Scotland
Paisley
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Azathoth video?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Kotsonis
United States
New Jersey
flag msg tools
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg49tQDZX6o
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arthur Petersen
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
it's your sister Cheryl!
badge
I work for Petersen Games. AMA
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
OK; for the Gnoph-Keh example, would that calculate before or after Wind Walker puts it into their reserve? Since, e.g., if they have all their Gnoph-Kehs on the board and you shrivel one, if the calculation is done before the kill is applied, they get zero power, and if afterwards they would get one.


I don't know. I assumed "at the moment of shriveling" which to me would mean you would get 0 power.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Azathoth faction expansion adds quite a lot to the typical game play session. Elder Things are one of the most useful and nasty options available to players. Negating the special abilities of Great Old Ones can hinder you greatly. Azathoth's health can be rather LARGE based on how much each player "votes" during his summoning.

All-in-all a recommended purchase for anyone looking to up the game with independent units.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Mendiola
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm 99% sure the return will be whatever the summoning cost for a unit at that moment. So if Wind Walker's Gnoph-Kehs are targeted and they're all on the board, then you'd get zero back and have to summon it back for 1.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Afrofrycook wrote:
I'm 99% sure the return will be whatever the summoning cost for a unit at that moment. So if Wind Walker's Gnoph-Kehs are targeted and they're all on the board, then you'd get zero back and have to summon it back for 1.


I believe you are correct on this one.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I am going to make a recommendation for the following change to the "Shriveling" spell book.

Original Text

Shriveling (Pre-Battle):
Select one enemy Cultist or Monster involved in the battle, that Unit is immediately Killed and the owner gets Power equal to the Unit's cost.


Suggested Revision

Shriveling (Pre-Battle):
Select one enemy Cultist or Monster involved in the battle, that Unit is immediately Killed and the owner gets Power equal to half the Unit's cost (rounded up).

This gives the spell book more bite and deters the following factions from abusing the system. It also scales with the cost of the units.

Examples:

Undead - Cost 1 - Half would be .5 rounded up to 1.
Flying Polyp - Cost 2 - Half would be 1.
Star Spawn - Cost 3 - Half would be 1.5 rounded up to 2.
Spawn of Yog-Sothoth - Cost 4 - Half would be 2.

1) Crawling Chaos (w/6 spell books) - Fly in Hunting Horrors to two separate areas owned by the same enemy. Utilize "Unlimited Combat". Gain power for your sacrificed unit. Follow up with "Thousand Forms" and Sacrifice "High Priest". Then follow up with Nyarlathotep's "Harbinger" ability. You've got a VERY bad situation forming here.

2) Sleeper (w/6 spell books) - Make sure all Wizards and Serpent Men are already in play. Then use a Serpent Man's "Ancient Sorcery" on Crawling Chaos' faction card to gain "FLIGHT". Fly two "Formless Spawn" two different locations owned by the same enemy. Then utilize "Unlimited Combat" to gain 8 power. You can then "Lethargy". At the end of the round you get one of your "Formless Spawn" back for free via "Death From Below" provided you lose no additional monsters. Combine this with Sacrifice "High Priest" to keep a steady stream of income.

3) Opener of the Way (w/6 spell books) - With the ability to upgrade units via "Million Favored Ones" this faction could become one of the most lethal. Move Abominations or Spawn of Yog-Sothoths into two different locations for the same enemy. Initiate combat. Both units are sacrificed. Gain power back. Take another set of units, level them up in combat, then rinse and repeat. This could potentially form an almost endless chain for Opener if executed properly. You could also use this to gain the spell book by sacrificing one of your monsters in combat... Plus you get it's full summoning cost back as well! Are you getting too low on power? Sacrifice the "High Priest"!

Note I used "w/6 spell books" on each of the factions. Combat becomes "Unlimited" with all your spell books. This allows you to initiate multiple battles in the same ACTION round. Revised via Valandor's post below.

Also, I did not list every faction to keep the post a bit shorter. Obviously each faction has a way to capitalize on this spell book on an "AS NEEDED BASIS".

Now lets add in an independent monster such as a Star Vampire. You have the potential to gain either a point of power or an elder sign. When combined with the option of an enemy's "Shriveling" you've got a nice way to bankroll yourself.

The same thing can be said about Azathoth's spell book "Nuclear Chaos". Crawling chaos with "Thousand Forms" + "Nuclear Chaos" and then taking advantage of an enemy's "Shriveling" spell book allows the faction too much control over its power resources. A change is needed to "Shriveling".

As it stands right now... This spell book has the potential to become more of a benefit for your enemies and less of a defense for you. So a change to the power distribution is absolutely warranted.

Thank you guys for reading. And as always, lets keep the conversation civil!

Are other Great Old Ones giving you a hard time? Then summon Hastur of the Yellow Sign!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Cardozo
Colombia
flag msg tools
With the Shriveling spellbook you can only select enemy units, you can't get power by killing your own monsters
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pennywise14 wrote:
With the Shriveling spellbook you can only select enemy units, you can't get power by killing your own monsters

Please read my arguments above. They specify the means in which to exploit this spell book. You do not possess the "Shriveling" spell book yourself. You move "YOUR" units into an enemy's zone that has the spell book. You initiate combat. The enemy player "Shrivels" your unit(s) away gaining you the full cost value of your sacrificed unit.

Example Restated

1) Crawling Chaos (w/6 spell books) - Fly in Hunting Horrors to two separate areas owned by the same enemy. Utilize "Unlimited Combat". Gain power for your sacrificed unit. Follow up with "Thousand Forms" and Sacrifice "High Priest". Then follow up with Nyarlathotep's "Harbinger" ability. You've got a VERY bad situation forming here.

Thank you for the reply though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
René Schep
Netherlands
Amersfoort
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert, when you have 6 spellbooks combat becomes an unlimited action. Which means it doesn't cost you an action, this does not mean you can initiate combat without paying your one power
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Valandor wrote:
Robert, when you have 6 spellbooks combat becomes an unlimited action. Which means it doesn't cost you an action, this does not mean you can initiate combat without paying your one power

Sorry about this. Still getting over this blasted cold. Even with initiating combat you are still coming out ahead. Obviously you are going to sacrifice higher cost monsters in order to reap the maximum benefit. And even still that is power going into your coffers.

The argument stands. I will make the appropriate calculations and adjustments above. Thanks for the shout out Valandor.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arthur Petersen
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
it's your sister Cheryl!
badge
I work for Petersen Games. AMA
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robert is correct:

A) you can select one of your own units to be shriveled
B) his strategy of combating multiple times to gain lots of power with shriveling would be very effective and I want to try it next time I play.
EDIT: although, you do lose those units, so it does not ultimately net you more power. But to do so once in late game would be like using your expensive monsters as batteries a la High Priests. That's why you'd do it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
René Schep
Netherlands
Amersfoort
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think the current shriveling is an issue. In every case that Robert pointed out he would be losing power. You could use it to move your units around the map easier, e.g. all your Starspawn are on the map you let one get shriveled and then summon it back somewhere else for the cost of 1 power.

Using your opponents shriveling results in 1 of 3 effects.
You get a power battery that costs at least 1 to use, so in the best case you get 3 power (in most cases less).
You get to move a monster to an area where you have a gate for 1 power, on the condition that you are in an area where the shriveling player has a unit.
You get to Lethargy for 1 power, if the shriveling opponent has a unit in an area where you have a monster and a gate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lincoln Petersen
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Shriveling your own units is usually only used in a few fringe cases. I'll list the ones that I can think of.

1. On the last turn of the game you get into a battle and shrivel one of your expensive monsters so you can do more that turn.

2. Star vampires are fighting a cultist or 1 monster of yours. You don't want them to get power or doom points from you so you just shrivel your own unit.

I think that's most of it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Robertson
United States
Arkansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Valandor wrote:
I don't think the current shriveling is an issue. In every case that Robert pointed out he would be losing power. You could use it to move your units around the map easier, e.g. all your Starspawn are on the map you let one get shriveled and then summon it back somewhere else for the cost of 1 power.

Using your opponents shriveling results in 1 of 3 effects.
You get a power battery that costs at least 1 to use, so in the best case you get 3 power (in most cases less).
You get to move a monster to an area where you have a gate for 1 power, on the condition that you are in an area where the shriveling player has a unit.
You get to Lethargy for 1 power, if the shriveling opponent has a unit in an area where you have a monster and a gate.


Yes you pay for the privilege of utilizing the strategy. That comes in movement cost and declaring battle. However, if you plan your attacks properly you can help to mitigate some of this. What sane player is going to eliminate a Serpent Man over a Formless Spawn when battle has been declared against them?

In this battle you're actually daring them to eliminate your units in exchange for power. Yes you are opening yourself up tactically on the next turn but that potential power increase could establish you as first player. That would in turn allow you to begin the rebuilding process BEFORE other players make their moves.

Let's take another idea here. Say everyone is either out of power or near it. A monster sacrifice at this point in time would allow you:

1) Capture an enemy gate.

2) Build a gate of your own in a new area.

3) Move a gate with "Beyond One" then "Capture". You've just scored more power during the gather power phase and reduced another player's at the same time.

4) Give you just enough power to summon one of your Great Old Ones! This would work like Black Goat's ability to remove two cultists to summon Shub-Niggurath.

5) Move Cthulhu into the area with a Shoggoth. Declare combat. Even if BOTH units die you've just gained 2 power and an Elder Sign token when Cthulhu was re-summoned. 2 power is HALF the cost to bring Cthulhu back into play. So yes you pay for the movement and battle declaration. But you are getting the power refunded to you. This in turn sets up for Cthulhu being re-summoned. Cthulhu rolls lots of combat dice so his potential for eliminating at least one enemy unit in combat is plausible. We call this a 3-for-1 special in retail.

6) Use a Serpent Man to gain "Flight" from Crawling Chaos. Then fly Tsathoggua into heavily populated areas to capture away! Yes he's spending power NOW but he's getting said power BACK during the gather power phase. This could potentially make him first player. And in turn annoy the hell out of the other players the next round.

7) Sacrifice a monster or two as Black Goat. Gain 2-6 power. "Ghroth" everyone into absolute submission. If this is done at the end of a round those players will all suffer BIG time during gather power phase. Especially if you are lucky enough to roll 3 or 4's. Then move one or more cultists into the empty gates! Black Goat units are cheap and easy to replace. So sacrificing them for this tactic is genius.
linkthestink wrote:
Shriveling your own units is usually only used in a few fringe cases. I'll list the ones that I can think of.

1. On the last turn of the game you get into a battle and shrivel one of your expensive monsters so you can do more that turn.

2. Star vampires are fighting a cultist or 1 monster of yours. You don't want them to get power or doom points from you so you just shrivel your own unit.

I think that's most of it.


1. It does grant you additional power during the last turn of the game. However, this could also apply if you had a bad turn the PREVIOUS round. Sacrifice 1-2 monsters to regain some lost ground.

2. Crawling Chaos utilizes Nyarlathotep's "Harbinger" ability. So you move him in, declare combat, and utilize "Seek and Destroy". If you pull in both Hunting Horrors you are guaranteed "3" power at the end of that round and an additional 2 dice. Now... Say you are battling Hastur. Even if you die.... You are still gaining the potential for 5 additional power at the end of conflict. That's 8 power recovered. 2 more re-summons Nyarlathotep. If the King in Yellow is present that becomes 10 power. PLUS you roll a ton of dice against everything in the zone. So you have a chance of annihilating your enemy. Now add in 3 Star Vampires. That's potentially 3 more power added in for a total of 11/13 power in one round. THAT's INSANE. Lose Nyarylathotep? Use "Thousand Forms" to gain enough juice to recover him in concert with "Sacrifice High Priest". Still not enough power to re-summon? Who cares? You've just gained a ton of power with which to torment your enemies!

This is an advanced strategy that takes advantage of an enemy's defenses. And if you chain game events properly you can abuse the hell out of this spell book. Now if my suggested change is made it would eliminate the gains by reducing the payout for the "Shriveled" unit.

Advanced Note: Combine "Shrivel" with the "Stars Are Right" as Crawling Chaos. Use the points gained from sacrificed monsters to move, initiate battle, and take advantage of "Harbinger" against enemy Great Old Ones. Pick up Star Vampires. Focus on gaining "Elder Signs". During the gather power phase you turn them in for both their DOOM points and POWER. This tactic would also work for Yellow Sign to maximize it's factions potential power. It's just so so sick.

In this way unit losses actually work toward YOUR benefit. If the enemy eliminates a cheap unit then you roll more combat dice against him. If he eliminates an expensive unit you gain power for it. This doesn't seem right to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Starks
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If someone Shrivel's a Brain Cylinder, how much power does the owner get? 0, since it has no cost?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick R. Nielsen-Doss
United States
Hudson Falls
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AdamStarks wrote:
If someone Shrivel's a Brain Cylinder, how much power does the owner get? 0, since it has no cost?


After reading the Yuggoth rules I would say yes it is zero.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.