Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: When did Kiev become Kyiv? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Ami. Geek.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whatever happened to good old Kiev? When did it become Kyiv? Who decides these things? If you look at Google maps, you'll see they use Kyiv now, instead of Kiev. However, they use Munich instead of Muenchen (or München), and Vienna instead of Wien. How am I supposed to know when to use the anglicized version and when to use the local version? WHY DID NOBODY INFORM ME?!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kyiv isnot Russian and so not comparable to Wien or Muenchen. If it were Russian, it'd be in Cyrillic for one thing. You're right it's inconsistent though.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ejmowrer wrote:
Whatever happened to good old Kiev? When did it become Kyiv? Who decides these things? If you look at Google maps, you'll see they use Kyiv now, instead of Kiev. However, they use Munich instead of Muenchen (or München), and Vienna instead of Wien. How am I supposed to know when to use the anglicized version and when to use the local version? WHY DID NOBODY INFORM ME?!


Try it the other way around. When did Kyiv become Kiev? It's the same thing as all sorts of last names getting changed at Ellis Island. You are just seeing one of the effects of globalization... the ability of different nations to reclaim their heritage, including the names of cities and other locations.

All I know is, I am grateful for Eurorails. It's where I learned ethnic pronunciations. And if it weren't for gaming in general, my geography would be for shit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Ami. Geek.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
They also show the Cyrillic alphabet version underneath. But again, no Wien underneath Vienna, so it's not like they're consistent in that regard, either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric "Shippy McShipperson" Mowrer
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Ami. Geek.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GameCrossing wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
Whatever happened to good old Kiev? When did it become Kyiv? Who decides these things? If you look at Google maps, you'll see they use Kyiv now, instead of Kiev. However, they use Munich instead of Muenchen (or München), and Vienna instead of Wien. How am I supposed to know when to use the anglicized version and when to use the local version? WHY DID NOBODY INFORM ME?!


Try it the other way around. When did Kyiv become Kiev? It's the same thing as all sorts of last names getting changed at Ellis Island. You are just seeing one of the effects of globalization... the ability of different nations to reclaim their heritage, including the names of cities and other locations.

All I know is, I am grateful for Eurorails. It's where I learned ethnic pronunciations. And if it weren't for gaming in general, my geography would be for shit.


Please, we're all 'murican's here. You don't need to pretend that Kyiv is the correct spelling.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Junior McSpiffy
United States
Riverton
Utah
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ejmowrer wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
Whatever happened to good old Kiev? When did it become Kyiv? Who decides these things? If you look at Google maps, you'll see they use Kyiv now, instead of Kiev. However, they use Munich instead of Muenchen (or München), and Vienna instead of Wien. How am I supposed to know when to use the anglicized version and when to use the local version? WHY DID NOBODY INFORM ME?!


Try it the other way around. When did Kyiv become Kiev? It's the same thing as all sorts of last names getting changed at Ellis Island. You are just seeing one of the effects of globalization... the ability of different nations to reclaim their heritage, including the names of cities and other locations.

All I know is, I am grateful for Eurorails. It's where I learned ethnic pronunciations. And if it weren't for gaming in general, my geography would be for shit.


Please, we're all 'murican's here. You don't need to pretend that Kyiv is the correct spelling.


I thought I was being perfectly 'murcan by assuming the latest thing the TV told me was the truth and am retroactively fitting everything else into that picture.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I thought it was Kiew.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's going to remain Kiev any time I write it in the forseeable future. But things change. I think we most people now use Beijing, but I recall when we all used Peking (and alternative spellings). That was a change to an improved translation method, which took a whole to accept. But we also all still say China, except of course the Chinese (OK, I exaggerate, others may also use other names). I'm not going to be saying Deutschland rather than Germany in most contexts. There are various places we used to have separate English names for that are dying out (like Lyons for Lyon) some I see a mixture of (Nürnberg vs Nuremberg) and some just aren't budging (Vienna). And of course there's pronunciation. The city with the Eiffel Tower is definitely Paris, but we don't all say it the same.

Of course politicians and others try to move things by diktat. The only Polish cit I've visited is Wroclaw, formerly Breslau, and that change was definitely political. But we don't need them to make it happen, things evolve.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris R.
United States
Unspecified
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought it changed its named to Челсі комплектування.

Apparently, its the 7th largest city in Europe, bigger than even Paris or Rome, and the fourth-largest European city if you don't count countries partially located in Asia, behind only London, Berlin, and Madrid.

I guess Western European cities have more suburbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_cities_in_Europe



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry Haskell
United States
Springfield
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"Kiev" is the transliteration of the Russian "Киев"; "Kyiv" is the transliteration from the Ukrainian "Київ". When Ukraine became independent, the official language was changed to Ukrainian, hence the different alphabet, different spelling of place names and so on. The same thing happened to my wife's hometown of Kharkov (Kharkiv). Incidentally, the change is not just cosmetic -- the two spellings are pronounced slightly differently.
22 
 Thumb up
0.03
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ejmowrer wrote:
Whatever happened to good old Kiev? When did it become Kyiv? Who decides these things? If you look at Google maps, you'll see they use Kyiv now, instead of Kiev. However, they use Munich instead of Muenchen (or München), and Vienna instead of Wien. How am I supposed to know when to use the anglicized version and when to use the local version? WHY DID NOBODY INFORM ME?!


Around the same time "Vienna" became "Vien" on lots of the maps for my games?

Kyviv is the "English-ized" spelling of the Ukrainian according to lots of places on the Internets. So I'm going to bet that it started to be used when the USSR fell apart and Ukraine became independent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Trzaskowski

Tucson
Arizona
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gamedog wrote:
"Kiev" is the transliteration of the Russian "Киев"; "Kyiv" is the transliteration from the Ukrainian "Київ". When Ukraine became independent, the official language was changed to Ukrainian, hence the different alphabet, different spelling of place names and so on. The same thing happened to my wife's hometown of Kharkov (Kharkiv). Incidentally, the change is not just cosmetic -- the two spellings are pronounced slightly differently.


Perfect explanation.

In Polish it's Kijów Just as the (Polish for many years) Lviv is Lwów.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sikeospi wrote:
I guess Western European cities have more suburbs.


One caveat is that the quoted list is administrative boundaries, not the urban area (which may differ).

But considering London (just because familiar with it) yes of course it has suburbs. But it also grew by a process of absorbing villages, even towns - in fact even one city - that were around it. That could happen because places were close together.

(And some things that were once suburbs - though that word hadn't been coined - are now central.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
It's going to remain Kiev any time I write it in the fireable future. But things change. I think we most people now use Beijing, but I recall when we all used Peking (and alternative spellings).


Many languages still use similar spellings. French, Spanish, etc. Also incidentally Bei-Da also uses Peking University as its name

It only seems to be with English where the Chinese have got a bit insistent that we use Beijing. Incidentally it seems that the difference is mainly one of dialect. I believe in Cantonese the J would end up sound more like a K to us, and the B would move somewhat towards a P.

Acceptability often moves quickly. We talk about Mumbai now, and not Bombay (although from what I understand there is a reasonably sized minority of Indians in that city who cling to Bombay).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some cities simply have names in many languages. For example I used to live in 's-Gravenhage, also know as Den Haag, which is The Hague in English, La Haye in French, La Haya in Spanish, Haga in polish and so on. In such cases, you simply use the name of that city in your own language. I would not expect any Englishman to abandon The Hague in favor of Den Haag (let alone 's-Gravenhage).

However sometimes name changes are a bit more sensitive, such as with Kyiv, which, as was mentioned, adopted it's Ukrainian name after Ukraine became an independent nation. Breslau / Wroclaw was mentioned above and the list goes on and on, as this name game was played extensively in Eastern Europe following WW2. In such cases, the preferred usage is the new* name.

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to tell one from the other.





* often not entirely new but in use for a long time by minority or foreign languages
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
andyl wrote:
It only seems to be with English where the Chinese have got a bit insistent that we use Beijing. Incidentally it seems that the difference is mainly one of dialect. I believe in Cantonese the J would end up sound more like a K to us, and the B would move somewhat towards a P.
We use Beijing now as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dearlove wrote:
It's going to remain Kiev any time I write it in the fireable future. But things change. I think we most people now use Beijing, but I recall when we all used Peking (and alternative spellings). That was a change to an improved translation method, which took a whole to accept. But we also all still say China, except of course the Chinese (OK, I exaggerate, others may also use other names). I'm not going to be saying Deutschland rather than Germany in most contexts. There are various places we used to have separate English names for that are dying out (like Lyons for Lyon) some I see a mixture of (Nürnberg vs Nuremberg) and some just aren't budging (Vienna). And of course there's pronunciation. The city with the Eiffel Tower is definitely Paris, but we don't all say it the same.

Of course politicians and others try to move things by diktat. The only Polish cit I've visited is Wroclaw, formerly Breslau, and that change was definitely political. But we don't need them to make it happen, things evolve.
Only 'Mericans here, others need not apply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Venga2 wrote:
andyl wrote:
It only seems to be with English where the Chinese have got a bit insistent that we use Beijing. Incidentally it seems that the difference is mainly one of dialect. I believe in Cantonese the J would end up sound more like a K to us, and the B would move somewhat towards a P.
We use Beijing now as well.
Speak for yourself, I have only just got used to call Rhodisa...oh for fuck sake (and by the way this is not a joke, it's a genuine mistake).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jasper
Netherlands
Leiden
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
slatersteven wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
andyl wrote:
It only seems to be with English where the Chinese have got a bit insistent that we use Beijing. Incidentally it seems that the difference is mainly one of dialect. I believe in Cantonese the J would end up sound more like a K to us, and the B would move somewhat towards a P.
We use Beijing now as well.
Speak for yourself, I have only just got used to call Rhodisa...oh for fuck sake (and by the way this is not a joke, it's a genuine mistake).
The travel agency called that your tickets or Yugoslavia are ready.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Boaty McBoatface
England
County of Essex
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Venga2 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Venga2 wrote:
andyl wrote:
It only seems to be with English where the Chinese have got a bit insistent that we use Beijing. Incidentally it seems that the difference is mainly one of dialect. I believe in Cantonese the J would end up sound more like a K to us, and the B would move somewhat towards a P.
We use Beijing now as well.
Speak for yourself, I have only just got used to call Rhodisa...oh for fuck sake (and by the way this is not a joke, it's a genuine mistake).
The travel agency called that your tickets or Yugoslavia are ready.
Actually I can get that Yugoslavia no longer exists...as it actually no longer exists.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Obviously Grandmaster Putin has pulled one over on the hapless Obama once again! Where are the carrier battle groups? The Defcon escalations? The Sanctions? Can we look any weaker? Thanks Obama!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josiah Fiscus
United States
Pittsburgh (Monroeville)
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This thread taught me that Peking is the same as Beijing. I'm too young to remember it as anything other than Beijing, but now I know why it's calling Peking duck. I don't know if I should feel embarrassed or enlightened.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
flag msg tools
SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
andyl wrote:
We talk about Mumbai now, and not Bombay


I'd call that one in flux, both still being used (yes, Mumbai by e.g. the BBC).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Born To Lose, Live To Win
United States
South Euclid
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Metal Undivided, Chaos For All
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
happyjosiah wrote:
This thread taught me that Peking is the same as Beijing. I'm too young to remember it as anything other than Beijing, but now I know why it's calling Peking duck. I don't know if I should feel embarrassed or enlightened.


Has anyone broke the news to you about Stalingrad?
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Agent J
United States
Coldwater
Michigan
flag msg tools
He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
badge
He's a semi-aquatic egg-laying mammal of action. He's a furry little flat-foot who'll never flinch from a fray. He's got more than just mad skills, he's got a beaver tail and a bill.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheChin! wrote:
happyjosiah wrote:
This thread taught me that Peking is the same as Beijing. I'm too young to remember it as anything other than Beijing, but now I know why it's calling Peking duck. I don't know if I should feel embarrassed or enlightened.


Has anyone broke the news to you about Stalingrad?


Istanbul was Constantinople.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.