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Subject: Quickstart Guide - Badly Needed! rss

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Dolem Thorn
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Wow. I finally got my shipment. I have to say, the complaints about the rulebook definitely are not overstated, if anything they are severely understated.

I read through this thing and I said to myself "Ok great, now how do I play?" Many people consider Mage Knight a challenging game to learn, with a complicated ruleset. I had absolutely no problem poring over the Mage Knight rulebooks and getting started.

I'll tell you right now what you will say to yourself after reading the Myth rule book and then trying to get it on the table. "Ok, I sorta know how this works, what the heck do I actually do?"

This is bad. Like really bad. Megacon games needs to fix this.

---

Here's how to fix it:

All we need is a guide. A single tile. You [Megacon Games] tell us the exact size tile, exactly what needs to spawn, how to set it up, how to play it, and provide an example playthrough.

Then this guide needs to explain how to run other tiles, and how to introduce quests. Do you even know how to introduce concepts in some sort of logical order? Sorry to get snarky, but this is a serious question.

The "Setup", "Starting Quest" and "Narrative (wtf?)" guide just don't cut it. Sorry, nice try. Scrap it and start over.

I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to hurt you guys. I've already kickstarted Recon at the $200 OPFOR level, but you need to fix this.
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Kolby Reddish
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I was hoping we'd get another thread like this. Very needed.
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Dolem Thorn
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I'm aware of the other threads. They are all needed, if not more. It's pretty damn bad.

Edit: Also, the reason I started a new one was to highlight the need for some kind of quickstart guide. Just tweaking the existing documentation isn't going to do the job.
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jef stuyck
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I wonder if anyone here has even tried reading the rulebook pdf ahead of time? The rulebook has been online for like 2 months now and all the complaints start now...
 
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Cracky McCracken
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Dolem wrote:
I'm aware of the other threads. They are all needed, if not more. It's pretty damn bad.

Edit: Also, the reason I started a new one was to highlight the need for some kind of quickstart guide. Just tweaking the existing documentation isn't going to do the job.


Are these rules posted online in .pdf somewhere?

I gotta see this thing shake
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Brad Richardson
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Reading the rulebook itself doesn't indicate much. By itself it reads pretty good, has plenty of diagrams, and I love the hero intros and general strategies. It all seems to make sense there. It's once you set it out on the table that you realize although you think you know how mechanics work on an individual level, you don't know how it all combines.

I read the rulebook in advance, as did many people and it all somewhat made sense there.

Personally, I was able to play but it could be a much smoother start and will easily deter more casual board game players (and plenty of more committed ones too).
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Steve Hajducko
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Is the rule book bad? Yeah.

Can you still play and have a good time? Yup.

Are you playing the game 100% right? Probably not.

But for some people, that's ok. For others, it ruins the experience. And reading the online rule book PDF isn't going to help. As has been stated in numerous other threads, many people felt they had a good grasp of the game and then only when they sat down and tried to play did they find issues.

There is plenty of supplemental info online already, along with a First Quest guide. If you can suspend your need for 100% accuracy of the rules for a few hours, you'll have a good time. If you can't, you probably won't and you should wait a bit before cracking open the game and more of the rules issues are ironed out.

But I had a good enough time playing a friends copy of the game to go out and buy a Captains pledge for 300$ the next day.
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Søren Staugaard
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From the latest update on the Myth kickstarter page:

"Updated Rules Booklet

We are currently working on an official FAQ and “Your First Game” section. This will be included in the second wave shipment to domestic and the complete shipment for international backers.

This is just the first of many step to try to solve the rule book issues. We are shooting official polished videos this week alongside Recon and are updating the document on the website"

This seems to indicate the sort of thing, you are looking for (emphasis added).
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John Middleton
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Banemus wrote:
I wonder if anyone here has even tried reading the rulebook pdf ahead of time? The rulebook has been online for like 2 months now and all the complaints start now...


Most of us were playing other games and reading to rules for them.

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Tom Scutt
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Dolem wrote:
All we need is a guide. A single tile. You [Megacon Games] tell us the exact size tile, exactly what needs to spawn, how to set it up, how to play it, and provide an example playthrough.

I don't understand why you don't like the Narrative Guide (http://megacongames.com/download/myth-setup-2/) - it seems to be exactly what you're asking for.
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Brad Richardson
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Steerpike wrote:
Dolem wrote:
All we need is a guide. A single tile. You [Megacon Games] tell us the exact size tile, exactly what needs to spawn, how to set it up, how to play it, and provide an example playthrough.

I don't understand why you don't like the Narrative Guide (http://megacongames.com/download/myth-setup-2/) - it seems to be exactly what you're asking for.


To be fair to the OP, there are some inaccuracies in the narrative that have added confusion (the major one just got fixed with the update yesterday). I thought it was pretty helpful and set up my game almost exactly like theirs, only I handled combat on my own. I think it helped a lot.
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Branden Sprenger
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I have seen quite of few of these threads on here and while I agree the rule book leaves something to be desired, what specifically are people not understanding?

It is setup? Combat? Progression between tiles?

I think the free form nature of the game is giving people a hard time with the rules. "Board Gamers" are used to having a clear objective to work towards and Myth is not structured like that. The closest thing it has to structure is the Story and Arc quests.

While these quests give shape to the game, it is important to understand that it is the individual tiles that dictate the games pace. They give you all the information one needs to setup the game. This includes chapter quests/traps, lairs, hunting packs and treasure.

Players take this information and make the game into a unique experience by making it as challenging as they want.

From there the rules provide almost everything else that one would need to play the game. Combat, enemy movement etc. I know there are some gray areas but temporary house rules should get you around the rough patches.
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Dolem wrote:

The "Setup", "Starting Quest" and "Narrative (wtf?)" guide just don't cut it. Sorry, nice try. Scrap it and start over.

I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to hurt you guys. I've already kickstarted Recon at the $200 OPFOR level, but you need to fix this.


Sorry, you're not right, you and the hundreds (likely over a thousand) others are just a tiny fraction of Myth players who don't understand the game.

Everyone else doesn't even need crutches like Setup, Starting Quest, or the Narrative because they are master gamers.
Edit: Or proper text on cards, or rules that work, or, oh my lord did another person just try and blame every person as just not liking sandbox games?

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Brad Richardson
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sprengermon wrote:
I have seen quite of few of these threads on here and while I agree the rule book leaves something to be desired, what specifically are people not understanding?

It is setup? Combat? Progression between tiles?

I think the free form nature of the game is giving people a hard time with the rules. "Board Gamers" are used to having a clear objective to work towards and Myth is not structured like that. The closest thing it has to structure is the Story and Arc quests.

While these quests give shape to the game, it is important to understand that it is the individual tiles that dictate the games pace. They give you all the information one needs to setup the game. This includes chapter quests/traps, lairs, hunting packs and treasure.

Players take this information and make the game into a unique experience by making it as challenging as they want.

From there the rules provide almost everything else that one would need to play the game. Combat, enemy movement etc. I know there are some gray areas but temporary house rules should get you around the rough patches.


Nooooooooooo! Now we're going to get a post listing all the things that are absent/ambiguous in the rulebook. What have you done???
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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BRich83 wrote:

Nooooooooooo! Now we're going to get a post listing all the things that are absent/ambiguous in the rulebook. What have you done???


Too late! And it was his plan all along.
 
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Branden Sprenger
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BRich83 wrote:

Nooooooooooo! Now we're going to get a post listing all the things that are absent/ambiguous in the rulebook. What have you done???


Just trying to lend a hand I guess. I want everyone to enjoy the game. I just figure people are over thinking it or don't know how to handle this much freedom in a game. haha.
 
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Brad Richardson
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sprengermon wrote:
BRich83 wrote:

Nooooooooooo! Now we're going to get a post listing all the things that are absent/ambiguous in the rulebook. What have you done???


Just trying to lend a hand I guess. I want everyone to enjoy the game. I just figure people are over thinking it or don't know how to handle this much freedom in a game. haha.


I'm right there with you. It's frustrating to see so many of the Myth threads devolve into the same unnecessarily heated arguments. "Is to!" "Is not!" "Is TO!" "Is NOT!"
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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BRich83 wrote:


I'm right there with you. It's frustrating to see so many of the Myth threads devolve into the same unnecessarily heated arguments. "Is to!" "Is not!" "Is TO!" "Is NOT!"


That's a little simplified, it's actually more of an argument of feelings vs rationale.

In example:
Quote:
"I really love this game and know it is great even if I do not have most of the rules to play it, therefore your thoughts are wrong."

Quote:
"I angrily rebutt your statement with examples and by proving them to be fallacies, therefore your feelings are wrong."


Just dumbed down more than that.
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Brad Richardson
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Ok your example is better. I was going for simple because I have to post from my phone. If BGG would come out with a phone or at least update the app I would've given it more effort.
 
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Clwe
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Seems like this game needs a quickstop guide to me. Something like...at the beginning of the rulebook - "Stop. Do not read any further. Wait for a new version of the rulebook where we'll fill in all the missing bits and sort out the ambiguities." whistle
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Roland Bruno
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" wonder if anyone here has even tried reading the rulebook pdf ahead of time? The rulebook has been online for like 2 months now and all the complaints start now..."

I did and I said the same on the KS. I didn't expect anything to be done about it in time but I at least hoped to have something new provided in time for when I got my stuff.

Nope.

They do appear to be in the process of rectifying this though and that understandably takes time. I just wish they had been a bit more thorough prior to saying the game was ready for the masses. Some blind testing with people would have shown the potential issues with the learning curve.
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Dolem Thorn
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Steerpike wrote:
Dolem wrote:
All we need is a guide. A single tile. You [Megacon Games] tell us the exact size tile, exactly what needs to spawn, how to set it up, how to play it, and provide an example playthrough.

I don't understand why you don't like the Narrative Guide (http://megacongames.com/download/myth-setup-2/) - it seems to be exactly what you're asking for.


The narrative guide is a rules overview/summary and then sort of a discussion of a session. It's really weird.

Quote:
They can choose to attempt either a Chapter quest
or a trap. Additionally they can choose to place a Lair, and then choose to add either
one or two Hunting Packs. The treasure limit of a 6x6 tile is five, so Ben takes five
treasure tracker tokens and places them on the appropriate tracking spaces on the
Darkness Board.v1.2
Melanie: I vote we do a quest here instead of the trap.
Joshua: Sounds good to me. Go ahead and draw a quest, Ben


Then
Quote:
Joshua: I don’t think we face a Lair here. My brigand here would have snuck up on these
rival thieves and waited for the optimal time to strike.
Ben: Fair enough. But, we have to face a Hunting Pack. We could face two if we’re feeling
brave.
Melanie: I think we would have lost the pack before this encounter. Let’s just face the one.
While they could have faced a maximum of two Hunting Packs on this tile, the
group chooses to face one Hunting Pack. This pack can have from three to eight
monsters of a single type. Joshua quickly makes the call...


What?
 
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Anthony Czerwonka
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I like the people that are complaining about the people complaining about learning the game.

If you know how to play the game, then great... Go play. Don't come to these forums and troll/jump on the people that don't. That's telling us that you don't either and just playing the part... Otherwise why did you open such forum that is obvious not for you.

If it's not for you, move on.... Let the people that are having a hard time with the game alone if you can't be helpful. You are no better then them if you can't contribute helping those, but rather complain that they are having a hard time and you are just making matters worse.

Again, if you say you have no troubles with the game, why are you even here and not playing.
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Donny Behne
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Symmetrical Docking wrote:
Dolem wrote:

The "Setup", "Starting Quest" and "Narrative (wtf?)" guide just don't cut it. Sorry, nice try. Scrap it and start over.

I'm not trolling. I'm not trying to hurt you guys. I've already kickstarted Recon at the $200 OPFOR level, but you need to fix this.


Sorry, you're not right, you and the hundreds (likely over a thousand) others are just a tiny fraction of Myth players who don't understand the game.

Everyone else doesn't even need crutches like Setup, Starting Quest, or the Narrative because they are master gamers.


Why do you always assume that anyone who has stated that they understand and can play the game must be telling everyone else they are stupid? You seem to have this stance in every thread. Is it not possible that those people who already understand the game are simply trying to help out those who don't without making a judgment call about their intelligence? You're generalizing everyone who seems to have a solid grasp on the game and it's an incredibly inaccurate representation.
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Donny Behne
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Curfew wrote:
Again, if you say you have no troubles with the game, why are you even here and not playing.


Some of those people are actively being helpful.

I don't count anyone in this thread saying "I can understand them, you're dumb." There's a couple "why didn't you read this earlier?", which isn't the same thing, a few people pointing out resources he can use that he may not be aware of and someone asking for more information. Then it devolves into the usual "people who understand the game are lying" crap that most of these threads do.
 
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