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Subject: Potential Unclarity in the Hero Deck Reference rev4e and other Rules rss

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Wallace MacBix
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So I just finished doing a line by line comparison of rev4d and rev4e with my eyes, so I may have missed something, but these documents are identical. I can not find a single difference between rev4e and rev4d, I hope there is some mistake, but that annoys me.

All of the concerns I had with rev4d are still here. So I'll be reposting my previous post along with some additions I didn't notice the first time.

Edit: Kenny pointed out
Quote:
The only card I have actually changed is the Circumvent 1 damage Range: Weapon.

@FALCN120‌
There was minor language changes on two archer cards. I literally changed 1 word in both . Yes I realize there is probably some other language errors but none are glaring. When things calm down we can go over it with a fine toothed comb.


My goal is still to make the cards more understandable and clear up any confusion. And again, this thread isn't asking for answers (some we already know), but for the gamer who doesn't come to BGG or the Myth forums these can still be an issue. There have been some claims that this document is made by a 3rd party and is only approved my the guys at Myth (I don't know if that's true), but based on some issues it could be true.


--------------

Some general comments: The supplement text in between each card is somewhat inconsistent. A lot of times you reference that X card provides a bonus based on movement, but not always. Sometimes you say that a card is an "Action/Reaction" card and other times you don't.

You may want to mention more on AoE. 1) How the direction can be chosen by the player [it isn't always directly away from the Hero] (that's only stated for the Blood of Gaia card) . 2) How bigger creatures/Lairs can only be hit once (again, only stated on Blood of Gaia). 3) How Heroes stuck in an AoE are automatically hit (again, only stated for Blood of Gaia). Since it's only stated on one card it can be assumed that it is the exception, not the rule.

You may also want to make card text more clear when you use the primary or secondary weapon. Yes there is Range: Melee, but you may want to have some new classifications of cards. Weapon for any skill that uses the primary item. Spell for casters in addition to the Shield for Soldiers (brigands and archers don't need to worry about this). And just have the current bolded text ("Fire, Holy, Ice, etc.") become the "sub-category" of the Spell.

If you can play interrupts regardless of how much you moved in the HC why do they only say "Yes" for Stationary. Also if this is the case, how come many of the interrupt skills that do move Heroes says "Not considered a Move."

Another Interrupt question (from pg 39 "Retaliation")
Quote:
If the Interrupt card allows the Hero to move away from a attacker or in some other way neutralizes an enemy attack, it move be played before that enemy attack


Does this mean that only Interrupt cards that specifically state they go after an enemy attack do so? Cards like "Now You See Me" and "I'll Take That" seem like they are played after the attack roll (based on their wording) not before.

Edit: Also I've seen this a lot. "Reduce the by -1" Depending on the langue translated into double negatives have different meanings. In some it reinforces the negative, but in English "reduce by -1" means the same as "increase by 1".


In general: Can you target a Hero with an Attack skill? They will be automatically hit, but it could be beneficial in may ways, for example better positioning for any movement based attack or to prevent loitering when only attack cards are available. Also if so, do they get to roll their Fate Dice to see if they get any Fate Recipes.

Hustle and Sprint have "Yes" for all movement options, but you can only move "Aggressively" when using a movement card.

RemiBureau wrote:
a better definition of which cards are aggressive movement (does it require the bolded Move keyword?




Are the Heroes allowed to look at their discard? It matters for the Acolyte Prayer cards, the Archer's Scavenge card, what cards were discarded for Rage (if I recall it just says you can't look at the cards when they are facedown counting as Rage), and in general what are the probabilities of certain cards to be drawn.


ropya wrote:
Better descriptions of optional. It seems like each class uses optional differently.

(Paraphrased)
The Archer needs arrows to attack at ranged (and get weapon bonuses), but it doesn't state this anywhere.
Does the Brigand have to play all of his combo cards at 1 time before any are resolved or one at a time?

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Wallace MacBix
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Acolyte:
Faith: you may want to add that Faith is never expended.

Armor of Faith: "...for every Faith the Acolyte spends"
The Acolyte doesn't spend faith, it should most likely read, "...for every Faith the Acolyte has." (Also, I didn't realize this gave a buff to every hero on the tile, may want to edit the card text like you did for Hand of the Father)

Last Rites: May want to mention that the Acolyte still needs LoS to the center square (because of the various questions that have arisen about it). Also "This can greatly increase the range of this spell at the cost of it hitting fewer targets." Is that just because you need to play a Hustle card instead of a Faith card? It seems a little unnecessary and confusing. And again I'll mention the rotation of the cross (an aside if it can be rotated, can it be rotated by only 90 degrees -to make a diamond shape-, I believe Endeavor said no, and that's good enough for me, but I think even on the Myth forums someone posted a diamond formation as a viable way to shape this AoE).

----- Officially we may rotate any AoE by 90 degrees and only the target square needs LoS

Hand of the Father: "A minimum of 1 Hero will always be affected because of the Acolyte's base Faith of 1." Shouldn't this be, "A minimum of 2 Heroes will always be affected because of the Acolyte's base Faith of 1 and the 1 Faith supplied by this card."

Consuming Fire: "For every Faith over 1, the DoT lasts another round." Isn't this the same thing as saying "The DoT lasts 1 round per Faith", which to me is more clear. 3 Faith means 1 damage now and 1 damage in the Refresh Phase for 3 turns meaning 4 damage total.

Blessings of the Dawn: I'd suggest editing the card text for this card too, specially stating that it targets all heroes.
mfaulk80 wrote:
the card text on Blessings of the Dawn should really read:
"Adds +1FD per Faith for Attack actions",


Guardian Angel: Can this be played after a successful attack happens to force it to be rerolled? (See above question about interrupts)

Chant of the Morning: Since you changed the text on Hand of the Father, did you mean to change it here too (since they were worded exactly the same)? Currently, "Clears all status effects on 1 Hero. +1 Hero per Faith." This means that with no other cards, 3 Heroes will always be cleansed (1 base from the card, +1 base Faith, +1 Faith from this card).

Dirge of Twilight: More a comment about the Stunned Status Effect, since status effects are normally resolved during Hero Refresh, does Stunned stay with the Captain until its next Activation? (this sounds more like Prone)
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Wallace MacBix
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Apprentice:

Ongoing: "Cards labeled as Ongoing stay out in the Refresh Phase...."

I assume this text should be "Cards labeled as Ongoing may stay out in the Hero Deck Phase." The 3rd sentence is also backwards. "Ongoing cards can be cleared the same round they are played..." You may also want to add a sentence that states you can choose to remove ongoing effects during the Hero Deck Phase before you reduce Threat.

Winter's Bite: I just wanted to point how Stun is inconsistent. This card stuns an enemy for 1 HC, the Acolyte's Dirge of Twilight stuns for 1 DC. Is this intended?

Fingers of Ia: May want to add, "Fingers of Ia always hits new targets (including Heroes) first before jumping to previously hit targets." Or see my above comment about a blanket AoE statement.

Research: Is this 1d10 reroll per Hero, or just 1 collective reroll?

Aura of the Elements: When this "ignores the first point of damage" does it also ignore any status effects associated with that damage? If a Crawler hits an Apprentice with this card active, does it get to roll it's Fate Die to see if it poisons the Apprentice?

Blink: You spend a lot of time explaining "Not considered a Move" for this card, but no other card that follows the same rules. If you wish this to be more clear, put it in a central rules location not attached to a specific Hero.

Illuminate: Slight clarification question: "Instinct enemies suffer +1 to their TN when attacking Heroes in that Realm tile". So if there are Instinct enemies on an adjacent tile attacking a Hero on the tile with Illuminate cast they do receive the +1 TN. But if an Instinct enemy is on the tile where Illuminate is cast attacking a Hero on an adjacent tile, then they do not receive the +1 TN. Also, in the rule book it states that "Undead monsters act like Instinct enemies" (pg 35) does that mean that this card will work on them?

Chaotic Overflow: If attacking only 1 target (or just doing 2 or more damage to a single target). Do you make only 1 attack roll to do all of the damage? Or do you do 1 attack roll per damage? Can you choose? Also if you have a +1 Damage effect how does this work? Do you get +1 damage per ongoing cleared, +1 damage per target, +1 damage per TN (of your choice), +1 damage to only 1 target (of your choice).

Meditate: Why do you gain +2 FD for staying stationary? There is no roll for this skill. If it meant for the rest of the turn it should be in on the card text not in the movement location.

Arcane Sigil: What is the point of this card (in the base game)? There is no way for a Hero to be Cursed.

Leech/Life Sieve: Can this be used on a Lair? The card says 1 Target, the Reference Sheet says "a single enemy." (Are Lairs considered an enemy?)
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Wallace MacBix
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Archer:

Maybe the Archer should also get the first "Required" blurb that the Brigand has. Also you should explain the Optional phrase in relation to the Archer here instead of on each card. That's just personal preference, but at least you only need to state it once.

Arrow: You may want to say that the Quiver dictates the maximum Ammo cards allowed. When Arrows are used with a Card are they immediately placed in the discard pile or do you set them aside (where they still take up space in the quiver) and discard them during the Hero Deck Phase. Also if your quiver is full can you play an Arrow card in an Action Space? If you later use an arrow that turn, does the Arrow in your Action Space get to go into your Quiver?

Orion's Tears: Do you choose how much Ammo to expend before the attack, or can you choose to keep going? If you target the same enemy with multiple arrows do you make 1 roll total or 1 roll per arrow. If you have a +1 damage bonus from another card how does this work? Do you get +1 damage per arrow, +1 damage per target, +1 damage per TN (of your choice), +1 damage to only 1 target (of your choice).

Through a Needle's Eye: For consistency "..allows the Archer to discard a single ammo card from her quiver.." "If the target has the armor subtype the TN is reduced by -2..." Just so it is more clear and people know where to look to see if a target is Armored or not.

To the Knee: Can this be used after the Captain/Minion Activates to apply to the next DC (if you needed the minion/Captain to move but still wanted to benefit from this card for example)? The card text implies yes, the Reference Sheet says no.

Kharon's Payment: "Attack into a critical location." Is this flavor text or some future mechanic?

----- Officially it's just flavor text

Wayfarer's Ruse: I assume if an Ammo card is spent from an Action Space it does not get cleared/discard (just turned face down or something) but it is not clear from the provided text. Also since Arrows are only Reaction cards, the arrow must be present on an Action Space before the DC triggers. And just to be 100% sure, is it intended that you can target any enemy in range (instead of the one that attacked you)? If you chose couldn't you roll each minion attack 1 at a time (I figure the roll all minions at once is a way to speed gameplay not a requirement) and then kill a different minion before it had a chance to attack? Or do the same as above for a different Hero?

Tumble: Does the term "Vault" have any special mechanic (future or otherwise) or is it flavor text? For Blink, the Apprentice can move "up to 3 squares" Here it just says, "move 3" meaning that she is forced to move all 3 squares. Also does this allow the Archer to "blink", ie not need a direct path to the final square, or must you move through valid squares?

Now you See Me: I assume this is played after the attack roll (before the Archer is damaged) but it is not clear. Also if the attack causes 0 damage, do any status effects still hit the Archer? (Or are the fate dice not rolled if an attack does 0 damage?)

Scavenge: Can Heroes decide the order in which cards go to the discard in the Hero Deck Phase? Can you decide if an Arrow used as part of a Requirement or Optional skill gets mixed in with the heroes hand when they get discarded, etc. And like I asked above, can a Ranger look at their discard pile before they play Scavenge?

Vision of the Mark: As I asked before, how does this combo with Orion's Tears?

Pincushion:
Koz1120 wrote:
(Paraphrased) How does the Optional - "Circumvent" work? It seems like you just play 1 interrupt after another, there is nothing special to this combo


Find Weakness: How does this work with AoEs? Does it give the bonus as long at the selected enemy is part of the AoE range, does it provide no attack bonus if there is another target, or does it provide no bonus for any AoE cards (even if the selected enemy is the only target)?

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Wallace MacBix
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Brigand:

Ongoing: "Cards labeled as Ongoing stay out in the Refresh Phase..."

I assume this text should be "Cards labeled as Ongoing may stay out in the Hero Deck Phase." You may also want to add a sentence that states you can choose to remove ongoing effects during the Hero Deck Phase before you reduce Threat.

Shadows:

You may also want a Shadows blurb that explains it a bit better. What happens if an enemy moves past the brigand while going towards another Hero? Does he get a roll, will his priority change if he notices the Brigand, etc.

----- Officially the above was answered by Kenny that when the Brigand gets out of Shadows any minion may target/attack him based on priority, but (to use his words) I'm pretty sure he's wrong. Pg. 29 says
Quote:
"I didn't See you There: ...can't target the Brigand for an attack unless they start out adjacent to him when they activate.""


If the Brigand is removed from Shadows does the card get flipped over and just takes up an Action Space until the Hero Deck Phase or does the Brigand reenter Shadows if he moves away from enemies.

----- Officially it gets turned face down and is cleared from the Action Space during the next Hero Deck Phase

Does the Shadows bonus (+2FD) apply to all cards in the combo or just the next attack?

When is Shadows explicitly broken, after the first attack in a combo or at the end of a combo?

----- Officially at the end of a combo

Also for combos, are they one continuous chain or can they be broken by other Heroes Actions or the DC? You should state the max movement speed while in Shadows is Cautious Movement. And lastly, while the Brigand is in Shadows does he take up space? Can a minion move on top of the Brigand, can the Brigand block a choke point while in Shadows and does the Brigand activate enemies if he enters their Threat Range (this last one is a "no" but is stated no where in the rules/on these cards).

A lot of people are confused about Shadows and combos work.


------

One with the Dark: I think the last sentence should be "...during the Hero Deck Phase."

Dirty Tactics: How long is does the target have their movement reduced by half for? Is there any way to remember that the enemy moves at 1/2 speed? How does this combine with Glacier's Grip/is there a minimum movement rule? If an enemy only has 1 MP and must walk through a square effected by Glacier's Grip is it allowed to move one square or is it forced to stay stationary?

Shadowslip: I think the last sentence should be "...during the Hero Deck Phase."

Shadow's Reach: Can this card target a Hero? (He would receive the 2 damage, but this could be used to provide better positioning for the Brigand, and would not be important if an Acolyte was about to heal). And if so, does the Brigand still get to roll the Fate Dice for any potential Fate Recipes.

Suicide Run:
RemiBureau wrote:
if you play suicide run on its own, is it a stationary attack, or an aggressive move attack?

Can you use your base 2 MP with a Standard Move (or 1 MP while in Shadows with a Cautious Movement) to move 4 (or 3) squares? And does Hustle allow you to move 6 regardless if you started in Shadows or not (or would it be limited to 5, and why?)? Also I assume that you must do all movement before you make your attack roll, but this is not clearly stated.

Shadow's Touch: If you play Shadow's Reach before Shadow's Touch, do you gain the +2 FD for both attacks?


Dark Reaver: Does the base form of this card require an attack roll or is it automatic? "If this card is played after Shadow's Reach while the Brigand is in Shadows..." should that be "..after Shadow's Reach or while the Brigand is in Shadows..." or do you require all 3 cards? And if you do, as asked earlier, do you stay in Shadows after the Shadow's Reach attack if you are going to combo into something else? Which direction does the attack go (for the purposes of dropping treasure if it is combed and kills 3 enemies)?

Like a Reed in the Wind: Can this be used against Ranged attacks? Can this be used to target the enemy that launched the attack? If the attack has a Fate Recipe(s) are they automatically applied or does the monster need to make a roll, or not at all? And a follow up, how long does it last; if this attack causes a DoT to an enemy does it stay there permanently like all monster DoTs do? Also is a Lair considered an "enemy" for the purposes of this card?

I'll Take That: I assume this is played after the attack roll (before the Brigand is damaged) but it is not clear. Also if the attack causes 0 damage, do any status effects still hit the Brigand? (Or are the fate dice not rolled if an attack does 0 damage?)

Unravel: Does this card lets the Brigand keep both Treasure Tokens drawn? How does this interact with the Treasure Limit on the tile? I assume "Ring of Kings" (green accessory) provides no additional benefit, but I'm not sure.

Cunning: This card is absent from this document. Makes it confusing when Unravel mentions it.

Unseen Ally: Why does the card state "Brigand stays in Shadows" if Shadows is only cleared after an attack and this card is not an attack. [I thought the intention was that you could use Shadow's Reach and still stay in Shadows but this is not the case].

Shadow's Friend: What does "Do not remove the Shadows card." mean? Is Shadows no longer broken after an attack because of this card? Does this keep a different Shadows card "active" even though you were noticed? Does it keep this Shadow card "active" after you've been noticed (and you'll renter Shadows after the enemies are kill/you move away from them/the next HC)? Also what is the TN for this Shadows? I assume the intent of this card is that if you are noticed, you play this card as an Interrupt then and the other Shadows card stays in effect, and no additional Notice Checks are made. This is not clear based on the text of this card and the Reference Sheet. Must this be played immediately after a Notice Check is made, or can it be played at any time during the DC to "reactivate" a previous Shadows card? Also, why is the card labeled as Ongoing, must you keep both this card and another Shadows card on your Action Spaces to stay in Shadows or does it let you remove this card from play during the Hero Deck Phase before you reduce threat, thus letting you play this card to stay in Shadows and still get -1 Threat from the Action Space?

Now you See Me: I assume this is played after the attack roll (before the Brigand is damaged) but it is not clear. Also if the attack causes 0 damage, do any status effects still hit the Archer? (Or are the fate dice not rolled if an attack does 0 damage?) [Is there a difference between dodging and parrying an attack?]

Shadowstep: I suggest overhauling the reference text (and please the card if you can before a shelf print). The following is more clear:
"If the Brigand is not in Shadows this allows the Brigand to move +3 MP and is considered an Aggressive Movement. If the Brigand is in Shadows this allows the Brigand to move +2 MP and is not considered a movement." Also the Standard Movement circle should most likely be a "No".




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Soldier:

Rage: You should also mention that you can play a card as Rage at anytime during the HC and never during the DC (as that's only mentioned under Threat in the manual not under Rage. Then again, can you play Rage cards during a DC that activates in the middle of a HC?). Also, pg 30 "Rage" is the only implication that Heroes do not have knowledge of their discard pile. Also is Rage considered a total number, like Faith, or is it expended upon use? I assume it's a total, but I can't find any reference to that.


Devastate: Is "massive attack" just flavor text? Also many seem to be confused/think it is a typo that this card can't be played with Cautious Movement. (Nothing to be fixed, I just thought I'd bring that to your attention).

----- Officially "massive attack" is just flavor text

The Hidden Blade: You may wish to clarify and say "If the target has the armor subtype the TN is reduced by -2". Just so it is more clear and people know where to look to see if a target is Armored or not.

Blade Dance: "For every Rage card played or on the Soldier's Hero Board..." I thought you could only play Rage cards during the HC (pg 31, under "Threat") Also the same situation for the Ranger's Wayfarer's Ruse, can you choose to only roll 1 minion's attack then counterattack for as many Rage as you have out, possibly killing other enemies before they attack? Also, the Reference Sheet says "...allows the Solider to retaliate against at least 1 attack made against him. For every Rage card played....makes a single attack..." does that mean if you have 0 Rage you get to do 1 counterattack or 0. The first sentence implies that you always get 1 attack, the next says that you only get 1 attack/Rage.

Riding The Edge: "...and can be preformed with a shield" should be "...and must be preformed with a shield." Based on the "Shield" section above. Also I assume this this card has no range (Rage) limit. Also the wording could be a bit better; it implies that you move first ("allows the Soldier to move through enemies as an attack") then attack, then says the opposite ("must end his movement in an empty square (This includes any square made empty by a[n] enemy killed by this ability"). Can you add Rage cards in the middle of this attack to extend the range? Can you end your movement prematurely or do you need to move the maximum distance?

Battle Joy: Don't know if this is relevant (and it may be in the rules already), but. If a monster does not have a Courage value, does it automatically pass or automatically fail this courage test?

Your Mother is a Crawler: Does this override the "melee monsters do not leave an adjacent Hero" rule? Or do they just stay stationary (next to another Hero) and just not attack.

----- Officially Kenny stated that for this card your Threat Range is just the Soldier's Threat + any Rage cards in play, and that you do not take enemies Threat Range Value into play. Is this correct (I'd argue that he's wrong)? Because Threat Range is defined as Heroes' Threat + Monster's Threat Value. This card just lets you make your Threat Range bigger, not redefine the term.


I'll Take That: I assume this is played after the attack roll (before the Soldier is damaged) but it is not clear. Also if the attack causes 0 damage, do any status effects still hit the Soldier? (Or are the fate dice not rolled if an attack does 0 damage?)



-------

Okay that's everything I noticed about this/the previous reference sheet, and some additions after playing with the Archer and Apprentice. Do you guys notice any other inconsistent or unclear rules?
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Roland Bruno
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Posting this on their site would probably be best.

Skimming this quickly, I see this has been answered there.

Devastate: Is "massive attack" just flavor text? Also many seem to be confused/think it is a typo that this card can't be played with Cautious Movement. (Nothing to be fixed, I just thought I'd bring that to your attention).

It's colorful language.

 
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Wolvercote wrote:
Posting this on their site would probably be best.

Skimming this quickly, I see this has been answered there.

Devastate: Is "massive attack" just flavor text? Also many seem to be confused/think it is a typo that this card can't be played with Cautious Movement. (Nothing to be fixed, I just thought I'd bring that to your attention).

It's colorful language.



As I said in the first post, I know some of the answers are already known by us. I know that "massive attack" is just flavor text, but how is someone who goes out and buy the game tomorrow suppose to know that without spending a good deal of time searching the forums or asking a question that has been answered before.

I think I'll start putting the answers that we know in bold just so people stop posting answers to known questions (and so it can be used as resource to find either official/agreed upon answers.
 
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J Larkin
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Appreciate you taking the time to go line by line. Don't think I could manage that. Will be great to get the Hero Reference all cleaned up before retail (at a minimum). It's definitely a document that should be included in a future printing of the rulebook or supplemental material and needs to be as clear as possible. Thankfully Kenny is working just as hard on his end to do that.


 
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LordCyler wrote:

Appreciate you taking the time to go line by line. Don't think I could manage that. Will be great to get the Hero Reference all cleaned up before retail (at a minimum). It's definitely a document that should be included in a future printing of the rulebook or supplemental material and needs to be as clear as possible. Thankfully Kenny is working just as hard on his end to do that.


Thanks. After realizing that the Acolyte was exactly the same, and then the Apprentice, I wondered if only the Brigand was getting fixes. Like I said I hope I'm wrong, and my eyes missed something, or something went wrong on their end and they uploaded the same document with a new name. But still annoying that nothing changed.

And I agree that this is most likely the best place to have most of those "what-if's" questions asked. Some should be in an FaQ, but this document should clear up all concerns about every card. So if I raise questions that are better suited to being answered in the rulebook, fine, but I'd still like an answer for them.
 
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Posted this elsewhere, and I'm not sure if this has been pointed out, but the card text on Blessings of the Dawn should really read:
"Adds +1FD per Faith for Attack actions",
NOT
"Adds +1FD for Attack actions per Faith".

It's subtle, and one of the milder offenses, but I still thought it should be pointed out.
 
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Posted this elsewhere, and I'm not sure if this has been pointed out, but the card text on Blessings of the Dawn should really read:
"Adds +1FD per Faith for Attack actions",
NOT
"Adds +1FD for Attack actions per Faith".

It's subtle, and one of the milder offenses, but I still thought it should be pointed out.


Yep, the card text, and it's reiteration in the Hero Deck Reference is misleading, but at least the Reference Sheet does state the correct use of the card.
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Added a question from Koz1120 about how the Circumvent --> Pincushion combo works.
 
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Has it been officially stated that Riding the Edge requires that the Shield be used for the attack? As it is right now, I understand the card as requiring a Shield to play, but allowing the Hero to use his weapon for the attack. Thematically, I see it as the Soldier bashing his way through a line of Monsters with his Shield as he attacks with his weapon OR shield. That would explain the verbiage of the Hero Deck Reference "can be performed with a Shield" vs your proposed "must be performed with a Shield"....
 
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J Larkin
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Has it been officially stated that Riding the Edge requires that the Shield be used for the attack? As it is right now, I understand the card as requiring a Shield to play, but allowing the Hero to use his weapon for the attack. Thematically, I see it as the Soldier bashing his way through a line of Monsters with his Shield as he attacks with his weapon OR shield. That would explain the verbiage of the Hero Deck Reference "can be performed with a Shield" vs your proposed "must be performed with a Shield"....


I have yet to see an actual ruling, only interpretations.

 
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