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Subject: An idea for a small change to how Trade Agreements work rss

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Chris J Davis
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I'm currently modding a ton of stuff in the game to make it more to my liking, and in doing so I came up with this idea; each player will still get Trade Agreements of varying values depending on their race, but each "1", "2" and "3" card will have some corresponding text on it to indicate how the trade agreement is broken (rather than the standard "broken due to combat" rule). What do you think?

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Christopher Halbower
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Holy cow! I'm not usually a fan of home made variants, but color me intrigued.

That idea could be quite good. When negotiating your trade agreements, you are also negotiating the level of trust and commitment to one another.thumbsup

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Chris J Davis
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Note that you can also have asymmetric agreements with this system; if you give me a 3 but I give you a 1, it means you can attack me but I can't attack you.
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Scott Randolph
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Very interesting. The other thing I like is that necessary rules/conditions are written right on the card.
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Christopher Halbower
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SFRR wrote:
Very interesting. The other thing I like is that necessary rules/conditions are written right on the card.


Yep. And those conditions are quite intuitive to those who've played TI3 a bunch. The three tiers are about perfect.
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Scott Randolph
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halbower wrote:
SFRR wrote:
Very interesting. The other thing I like is that necessary rules/conditions are written right on the card.


Yep. And those conditions are quite intuitive to those who've played TI3 a bunch. The three tiers are about perfect.


"+1"

Astute observation.
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Martin DeOlden
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Anyway to get the file you have for those I would love to work up some for myself in each race.
 
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Chris J Davis
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The full set:



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Chris J Davis
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If anyone wants a PDF, PM me with your e-mail and I'll send it along.
 
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bob mackenzie
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i love the idea, it makes trade more realistic. it would need some balancing issues and some rules to go with it.
my take is that you only return your trade card if broken, and they keep yours, making trade more carefully planned. only way of getting them back is to break all trade agreements. emirates of hacan would need to be looked at concerning trade.

but hey i like the idea
good work

edited, your trade 3 agreements should state, when you fire pds at that player when they are not entering a system you control (shouldnt be penalised when you are defending from an attack from them)

and trade 2 for easier reading should read, you attack... in space or invasion combat

(note your black players number should be white not black)
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Chris J Davis
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Ti3_user wrote:
i love the idea, it makes trade more realistic. it would need some balancing issues and some rules to go with it.


Well, part of the point of it is that the rules are on the cards. No other rules needed (beyond those that already exist for Trade Agreements).

Quote:
my take is that you only return your trade card if broken, and they keep yours, making trade more carefully planned.


I'm actually considering modding the rules (for trade in general, not for these cards specifically) to allow players to give a trade agreement without getting one in return. Probably won't, as it would likely break many Action and/or Political cards, as well as other game mechanics, but there's no inherent reason why you *must* swap cards rather than just give them away.

Quote:
only way of getting them back is to break all trade agreements. emirates of hacan would need to be looked at concerning trade.

but hey i like the idea
good work


Thanks!

Quote:
edited, your trade 3 agreements should state, when you fire pds at that player when they are not entering a system you control (shouldnt be penalised when you are defending from an attack from them)


I don't think the enemy would see it that way. If they're giving you 3 TGs/round, then they can go wherever the hell they bloody want!

Quote:
and trade 2 for easier reading should read, you attack... in space or invasion combat


Probably true, though I'm not sure I can be bothered to change it now!

Quote:
(note your black players number should be white not black)


No, that's deliberate, to make it more distinctive from the grey cards.
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Starkiller
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Wow....really good idea....I like!

To take this a bit further (note I'm typing as brain is thinking, so I take no responsibility for whatever I'm about to type)
Anyway, what if each race had customized cards?

For example: the Winnu #1 TA could read just like your #2.
(Broken if attack Winnu in space or invasion.)
This is thematic, seeing as how they're peaceful custodians.

Meanwhile, the Letnev #1 TA could read just like yours.

Therefore, some races would have extra insurance. Just a little more variance between races.

I have no idea if this is remotely a good idea....just thinking...
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Scott Randolph
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akinfantryman wrote:
Wow....really good idea....I like!

To take this a bit further (note I'm typing as brain is thinking, so I take no responsibility for whatever I'm about to type)
Anyway, what if each race had customized cards?

For example: the Winnu #1 TA could read just like your #2.
(Broken if attack Winnu in space or invasion.)
This is thematic, seeing as how they're peaceful custodians.

Meanwhile, the Letnev #1 TA could read just like yours.

Therefore, some races would have extra insurance. Just a little more variance between races.

I have no idea if this is remotely a good idea....just thinking...


This is actually super cool! I think you should keep applying your creative talents along these lines and invent something like "Racial Benefit Special Trade Agreements." You could maybe combine some of the ideas from "Treaty" cards?

Very Creative!

"+1"
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Chris J Davis
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akinfantryman wrote:
Wow....really good idea....I like!

To take this a bit further (note I'm typing as brain is thinking, so I take no responsibility for whatever I'm about to type)
Anyway, what if each race had customized cards?

For example: the Winnu #1 TA could read just like your #2.
(Broken if attack Winnu in space or invasion.)
This is thematic, seeing as how they're peaceful custodians.

Meanwhile, the Letnev #1 TA could read just like yours.

Therefore, some races would have extra insurance. Just a little more variance between races.

I have no idea if this is remotely a good idea....just thinking...


Yeah, I had considered making the Trade cards completely distinctive to each race, but decided against it basically because I couldn't be bothered to create 18 different sets of Treaty cards.
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Andy Day

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I love the art, but I don't feel this idea adds anything to the game except time.
 
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Chris J Davis
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Gylthinel wrote:
I love the art, but I don't feel this idea adds anything to the game except time.


How does it add time to the game?
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Andy Day

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bleached_lizard wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
I love the art, but I don't feel this idea adds anything to the game except time.


How does it add time to the game?

It increases the complexity of the rules, and of negotiations. Any increase to complexity adds time.

I'm actually considering tossing out Trade Agreements entirely, as part of my effort to make the game faster.
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Christopher Halbower
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These shouldn't impact game time more than regular trade agreements. And negotiation is the best part of TI3.
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Chris J Davis
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Gylthinel wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
I love the art, but I don't feel this idea adds anything to the game except time.


How does it add time to the game?

It increases the complexity of the rules, and of negotiations. Any increase to complexity adds time.

I'm actually considering tossing out Trade Agreements entirely, as part of my effort to make the game faster.


Where do players get Trade Goods from, then? Or do they just not get them at all?
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Starkiller
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Gylthinel wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:
I love the art, but I don't feel this idea adds anything to the game except time.


How does it add time to the game?

It increases the complexity of the rules, and of negotiations. Any increase to complexity adds time.

I'm actually considering tossing out Trade Agreements entirely, as part of my effort to make the game faster.

wowI'd be interested to know what exactly appeals to you about TI3 over other si-fi games that you expect to be intact after it's shortened.

Errmmmm.... have you tried a different si-fi game?
Eclipse, Alpha Centauri, Space Empires: 4X, and Empires of the Void are all compared to TI3 but shorter.
(I've only tried Eclipse, and it's great! Different, would rather play TI3, but if I don't have a full day it's wonderful.)

Basically, I'm curious what you found lacking in those games that would be in a pared-down TI3.

I myself would think--if you're eliminating negotiation and other time consuming parts--that a different game may be what you want.
(And Eliminating the Trade SC doesn't really save that much time, unless you're eliminating all the SC. And then you really have a different game, and might as well purchase one that is already designed/balanced. IMHO.)
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Andy Day

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halbower wrote:
These shouldn't impact game time more than regular trade agreements. And negotiation is the best part of TI3.

This is where I disagree. Adding more rules to trading will add to time. Probably bot much granted. But saying that more complex doesn't = more time doesn't seem right.

It seems very odd to me that level 1 trade agreements would basically just give you more trade goods to fight your trade partner with. It's thematically goofy and doesn't make much sense from a negotiation standpoint.

I think similar effects can be netted from the promissory notes.

I don't want to derail this thread with talk about my game-shortening ideas!
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Martin DeOlden
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SFRR wrote:


This is actually super cool! I think you should keep applying your creative talents along these lines and invent something like "Racial Benefit Special Trade Agreements." You could maybe combine some of the ideas from "Treaty" cards?



This is sort of following along those lines for Racial ability trading.
I got these originally from
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These have been playtested for years now and have done well.
You can check them out here:
http://bgg.cc/article/15343921#15343921



I think these trade agreements will add a new improved dimension for the game. I hope to get these printed out for a test run soon.
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Starkiller
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I should have known tawnos76 would already have something along the lines of my idea.....

On a related note, your TI3 games must be COLOSSAL! I'm pretty sure you have more fan-based optional rules than anyone else on the boards...
 
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Lance Harrop
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bleached_lizard wrote:


Yeah, I had considered making the Trade cards completely distinctive to each race, but decided against it basically because I couldn't be bothered to create 18 different sets of Treaty cards.


I'm a bit confused. Doesn't each race get the same base numbers they started with, so you would need 18 x 2 cards or (3x3x2x2) versus 8 x 6 cards or (3x2x2x2)? In short, fifty percent more to give each race their race specific trade cards.
 
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Chris J Davis
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Leifr wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:


Yeah, I had considered making the Trade cards completely distinctive to each race, but decided against it basically because I couldn't be bothered to create 18 different sets of Treaty cards.


I'm a bit confused. Doesn't each race get the same base numbers they started with, so you would need 18 x 2 cards or (3x3x2x2) versus 8 x 6 cards or (3x2x2x2)? In short, fifty percent more to give each race their race specific trade cards.


Well, firstly, in the revisions I'm creating, each race can have up to 3 TA cards (though some only have 1).

Secondly - and this is what is more to the point - the real work doesn't come from creating the actual physical cards; it comes from thinking up the 36+ different and distinctive abilities for each race. Creating 24 cards that are all identical except the background colour is a doddle. Creating 36 cards that are all different... not so much.

EDIT: (To lend a bit of practical perspective, creating an extra set of 12 cards in another 4 different colours would probably take me about 15 minutes. Thinking up 12 more abilities would probably take me about 2-3 days - a couple of weeks for the whole set of 36.)
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