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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: The proxy question rss

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jonathan kipps-bolton
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Just because I love opening old wounds. This issue seems to devide people some people don't mind some people are very strongly against proxy cards but what about tokens and tame rulers.

I've noticed more and more people using acrylic range rulers instead of the cardboard ones.

Surely if you are going to ban proxy cards then the same should be true for tokens and rulers?

Thoughts?
 
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Andrew Lepperd
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Since you asked, here's my rules that cover that sort of thing as a TO.

Quote:
REQUIRED MATERIALS:

Each player is expected to have a constructed fleet that meets the requirements for the given event and the basic fleet construction rules, a damage deck, a range ruler, maneuver templates, dice, and otherwise have tokens and materials required to play their fleet. The TO or other players may loan these at their discretion, however this is subject to availability and should not be viewed as a replacement for having your own play materials.

All play elements are subject to spot-checking by the TO to ensure legality.

PROXIES AND SUBSTITUTIONS:

You must have the original printed version of any ship, captain, or upgrade used in a tournament at Pegasus games. You may use substitutions for cards and models for aesthetic reasons (updating the portraits on crew, using a more aesthetically pleasing model for a ship, etc), however you must possess and be able to produce on demand any originals.

Substitutions should be readily identifiable as the original model or card with little confusion, and your opponent may freely demand you use the original during any given round at their sole discretion if they feel any confusion remains.

You must possess originals on a 1:1 ratio for what you wish to include in your build. For example, if you wish to include 3 copies of cloaked mines in your fleet, you must possess 3 original copies of the "Cloaked Mines" upgrade from the IRW Praetus retail expansion. You may borrow ships and upgrades from other players to complete your build, however you must have them in your physical possession for the duration of the event.

You may use a mine token aside from those in the starter or Romulan Bird of Prey expansion, provided it conforms to the exact size and shape of the STAW mine template.

CUSTOM MEASURING TEMPLATES AND TOKENS:

Custom measuring templates such as those from Litko are allowed, provided that they conform exactly to those in the core game. These may be spot-checked by the TO. Take particular note that X-Wing measuring templates and rulers are NOT identical to Attack Wing, and may NOT be used in their place.

Custom tokens (target lock, scan, etc) should be readily identifiable as to their purpose and have icons that are easily distinguished as representing these effects based on those included in the STAW starter.

DICE:

Only Star Trek Attack Wing dice are allowed. While X-Wing dice are functionally similar in number of faces and results, to avoid confusion they are not permitted for use in STAW events.

If an attack or evade roll requires more dice than the player possesses, they may make note of and retain the result of the outcome of a given die or dice and re-roll dice as needed. This does NOT count as a "re-roll" for game rule purposes.

Dice are considered "in-play" if they land on any table surface. Dice that leave the table and land on another surface such as a chair or the floor are never read and always re-rolled for a valid result.

Dice are considered "cocked" if there is not a result that is clearly readable upward-oriented result. If there is a dispute as to whether a die is cocked, it should be left as-is and the TO should be called.

SPORTSMANSHIP:

In addition to the basic standards of sportsmanship and good conduct that all reasonable, well-adjusted adults should be aware of, the following guidelines should be kept in mind:

"Kabitzing" - It is considered poor form to ask for or offer outside advice on game tactics. Please keep this in mind when observing others' games.

"Slow Play" - It is entirely within the rules of the game to attempt to avoid engagement and "run out the clock," though this tactic won't get you into Sto'Vokor. However a distinction must be made between delaying the outcome of the game by avoiding contact with your fleet while still moving through the phases and turns at a normal pace, and deliberately slowing the actual pace of your play, IE by taking an inordinate amount of time to place dials, select targets, etc. There is no one standard for what constitutes slow play, as there is not defined turn time limit. Differing fleets, player experience levels, and circumstances may require differing amounts of deliberation. However you do not want to be caught deliberately slow-playing.

The above examples are not exhaustive, and the TO reserves the right to warn and in egregious cases/repeat offenses disqualify players for sportsmanship infractions.


If it's not an official tournament, IDRGAF, go nuts. And of course this is only the rules in "my house," I can't say what another TO will or won't allow and defer to them at "their house."

E: The below replies hit the "why" nail right on the head. Sort of like how in magic your deck must be bone-fide WotC-approved, but you can track your life with tons of different methods from a pile of pennies to a piece of scratch paper as long as they are accurate and consistent.
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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No.





Now, if you'd like me to elaborate slightly, in games such as this where each player is expected to have their own collection, there is a divide between game pieces and game parts.

In this case, a game piece would be your ship cards, upgrade cards, etc. These items should not be proxied and 'prove' that you own the figure that you're fielding.

A game part, however, is something like the range finder or movement templates. An item that is required to play the game, but is ubiquitous and can be supplied by any party.
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Nova Cat
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Magentawolf wrote:
Now, if you'd like me to elaborate slightly, in games such as this where each player is expected to have their own collection, there is a divide between game pieces and game parts.

In this case, a game piece would be your ship cards, upgrade cards, etc. These items should not be proxied and 'prove' that you own the figure that you're fielding.

A game part, however, is something like the range finder or movement templates. An item that is required to play the game, but is ubiquitous and can be supplied by any party.

This. As long as the tokens are unambiguous and the rulers/templates are functionally identical to those that come with the game, there's no reason at all to disallow them.

Ship models and cards, however, are a sort of proof-of-purchase. Disallowing proxies is a means of ensuring that people are actually buying the game and its expansions.
 
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Allen Gould
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I'm a bit amused that you're OK with substitutes of everything except dice. To my mind, having different ships and bases and cards would be way more confusing. (Or at least, that dice would be under the same restrictions - OK unless someone is confused).

But as you say, your house, your rules.
 
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jonathan kipps-bolton
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So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


The same proof of purchase concept could be applied to the base set.

If I just buy or make the range rulers and share a damage deck then I don't need to spend any money on the base set
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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When I got my acrylic rulers, a few guys had me stick an original template next to it and when they were the same size, they were fine with them.

I agree with others on the difference between parts and pieces. If someone proxies 6 cloaked mines, I'd have a problem, that is just them wanting to be a cheapskate and not purchase 6 ships that are otherwise useless. However, everyone with the base game has rulers already. If anything, the acrylic rulers are 'more accurate' as they fit better and cause less 'space drift'.
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Nova Cat
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jiffk wrote:
So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


The same proof of purchase concept could be applied to the base set.

If I just buy or make the range rulers and share a damage deck then I don't need to spend any money on the base set

True. And I actually know a guy who might be getting into this game when the Borg Sphere comes out who plans on doing just that. He'll buy two spheres, and nothing else. He'll just borrow templates, dice, and damage cards from whoever he's playing against.

But he still did buy the game. It's not a requirement that you buy every part of the game.
 
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Andrew Lepperd
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anyGould wrote:
I'm a bit amused that you're OK with substitutes of everything except dice. To my mind, having different ships and bases and cards would be way more confusing. (Or at least, that dice would be under the same restrictions - OK unless someone is confused).


In practice, the proxies I have seen:

- Someone replacing the card art on Actual Khan from the Reliant expansion with an image of White Khan from the Abrams movie. (gross, but you could tell what it was supposed to be)
- Using a more "correctly" scaled Defiant model.
- Using a different model of the identical class of ship (like micromachines/shapeways)
- Using the Constitution Refit in place of the Constitution

Only the last one has the potential to be terribly confusing, and only in July. Still, I wrote in the requirement to have the original on hand as a hedge against anyone getting more "creative" than they ought.

The reason I treat dice a little differently is it's easy to tell at a glance if a card or ship model is going to confuse you, it's easy to overlay an acrylic template over the starter ones. But you can't see all the die faces or tell that they're kosher just from a glance; and frankly I'd rather outright ban "custom/alternate" dice and nip it in the bud than have to deal with accusations of someone using loaded ones after the fact.

jiffk wrote:
If I just buy or make the range rulers and share a damage deck then I don't need to spend any money on the base set


I can't speak to anyone else's rules, but at my venue each player needs their own damage deck.
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Waspinator
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Didn't Andrew Parks once say the game was playtested with shared damage decks?
 
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Andrew Lepperd
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TheWaspinator wrote:
Didn't Andrew Parks once say the game was playtested with shared damage decks?


IDK, but I'm pretty sure he said on these forums whether to share or do individual was up to the TO.

Ultimately my main rationale for requiring individual is thus: If there is a requirement for one shared damage deck but no "duty" for either player to actually provide it, I could end up with situations where I've matched two players and neither has the required components to play a round of Star Trek: Attack Wing™.
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Waspinator
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Found it. No official rule, it's up to the venue. But the game was playtested using a shared deck.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1049135/damage-decks-in-op-e...

People SHOULD own their own starter sets anyway. I'm ok with loaning out an extra die or two for a big attack, but I shouldn't be having to pass my dice back and forth constantly.
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Daniel Hensel
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alepperd wrote:
anyGould wrote:
I'm a bit amused that you're OK with substitutes of everything except dice. To my mind, having different ships and bases and cards would be way more confusing. (Or at least, that dice would be under the same restrictions - OK unless someone is confused).


In practice, the proxies I have seen:

- Someone replacing the card art on Actual Khan from the Reliant expansion with an image of White Khan from the Abrams movie. (gross, but you could tell what it was supposed to be)
- Using a more "correctly" scaled Defiant model.
- Using a different model of the identical class of ship (like micromachines/shapeways)
- Using the Constitution Refit in place of the Constitution

Only the last one has the potential to be terribly confusing, and only in July. Still, I wrote in the requirement to have the original on hand as a hedge against anyone getting more "creative" than they ought.

The reason I treat dice a little differently is it's easy to tell at a glance if a card or ship model is going to confuse you, it's easy to overlay an acrylic template over the starter ones. But you can't see all the die faces or tell that they're kosher just from a glance; and frankly I'd rather outright ban "custom/alternate" dice and nip it in the bud than have to deal with accusations of someone using loaded ones after the fact.

jiffk wrote:
If I just buy or make the range rulers and share a damage deck then I don't need to spend any money on the base set


I can't speak to anyone else's rules, but at my venue each player needs their own damage deck.

I totally understand banning custom dice for organized play, but what do you think about substituting/supplementing Attack Wing dice with X-Wing dice. They're still "official" dice and have the same distributions of comparable symbols. They simply belong to another game that uses the same FlightPath system.

I haven't seen anyone actually do this yet, but I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.
 
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Andrew Lepperd
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Mr_Tricorder wrote:
I totally understand banning custom dice for organized play, but what do you think about substituting/supplementing Attack Wing dice with X-Wing dice. They're still "official" dice and have the same distributions of comparable symbols. They simply belong to another game that uses the same FlightPath system.

I haven't seen anyone actually do this yet, but I personally wouldn't have a problem with it.


I'd prefer not to do it, just to keep the line completely firm on the dice front, at least for OP. I totally get the argument that if you swap focus for battlestations it's functionally identical, but I'd rather keep any possible confusion or accusations those eyeballs might cause out of my venue.

Again, for OP, at my venue where I TO. I don't presume to speak for anyone else.

One thing we've joked about is that just having a couple extra attack and defense dice as the participation reward for an OP event would be a huge boon and get people out in droves. Heck, if I could transmute the extra elite attack dice I have left over from OP1 to regular attack dice, I probably would.
 
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Daniel Hensel
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TheWaspinator wrote:
Found it. No official rule, it's up to the venue. But the game was playtested using a shared deck.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1049135/damage-decks-in-op-e...

People SHOULD own their own starter sets anyway. I'm ok with loaning out an extra die or two for a big attack, but I shouldn't be having to pass my dice back and forth constantly.

My girlfriend and I first started participating in the OP events when we only had one starter set between us. Three of our local players are a dad and his two sons (you all know him as dc0nklin), and they started out all playing from the same starter set. In the early OP events, we typically had only one set of dice and templates, one range ruler, and one damage deck per table. We got used to playing that way out of necessity, and it doesn't bother me at all to share common components like that, even though now we all have enough starter sets for each player.
 
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Andrew Lepperd
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In practice, we tend to be pretty forgiving when it comes to new players. I'll gladly loan out rulers, a damage deck, and dice, even a fleet if I think someone is legit starting out and wants to dip their feet in OP. I've got two starters worth of stuff and custom acrylic maneuver templates.
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Andrew Lepperd
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One thing that Johnathan Thomas touched on upthread that informs the "no proxy" rule for upgrades and the like is that in addition to promoting purchases of the ships, hopefully at the OP venue, it creates an entry barrier to some of the more abusive or just annoying "spam" builds that people can conceive of on paper.

Want to run 6 cloaked mines? You better want to bad enough to buy 6 Praetuses... uh... Praetii?
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Kenn Mikos
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jiffk wrote:
So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


No, the ship model is strictly an aesthetic "part". The actual game "piece" is the base. It's perfectly possible (though confusing) to play a game of Attack Wing with no ship models at all.
 
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Allen Gould
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kemikos wrote:
jiffk wrote:
So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


No, the ship model is strictly an aesthetic "part". The actual game "piece" is the base. It's perfectly possible (though confusing) to play a game of Attack Wing with no ship models at all.


I would be curious to know if stores would allow such a thing (playing a game sans models).
 
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Evan
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Well, it'd certainly make measuring the arcs easier.


(Mine is a pretty informal venue, and last OP I went up against a fleet with six proxied Romulan Pilots. I'm sure I'd feel more strongly about it if they had been mines, but needless to say it was a pretty wacky match.)
 
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Kenn Mikos
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anyGould wrote:
kemikos wrote:
jiffk wrote:
So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


No, the ship model is strictly an aesthetic "part". The actual game "piece" is the base. It's perfectly possible (though confusing) to play a game of Attack Wing with no ship models at all.


I would be curious to know if stores would allow such a thing (playing a game sans models).


You've never popped a ship (particularly one with a model that overhangs quite a bit - Valdore-class, I'm looking at you...) off its base to make measuring maneuvers easier in tight quarters? It happens pretty regularly in our events, and the model is usually left off until the field opens up a bit.
 
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John S.
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Novacat wrote:

True. And I actually know a guy who might be getting into this game when the Borg Sphere comes out who plans on doing just that. He'll buy two spheres, and nothing else. He'll just borrow templates, dice, and damage cards from whoever he's playing against.


Not from me he won't. That's about like buying a fork and a napkin, and borrowing the rest of his lunch every time he sits down at the table. Sure, my game components aren't consumed by his use, but it's premeditated taking advantage of others. It's rude, and in my book it's mooching.
 
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Evan
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Psychlone wrote:
Novacat wrote:

True. And I actually know a guy who might be getting into this game when the Borg Sphere comes out who plans on doing just that. He'll buy two spheres, and nothing else. He'll just borrow templates, dice, and damage cards from whoever he's playing against.


Not from me he won't. That's about like buying a fork and a napkin, and borrowing the rest of his lunch every time he sits down at the table. Sure, my game components aren't consumed by his use, but it's premeditated taking advantage of others. It's rude, and in my book it's mooching.


See, I consider it way, way ruder to try and keep someone from playing a game just because you've worked yourself into a self-righteous tizzy over the idea of premeditated borrowing.
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Evan
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I enjoy chess, but I'll only play it against people who own a separate set of their own. Friggin' moochers.
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Daniel Hensel
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kobold47 wrote:
Well, it'd certainly make measuring the arcs easier.


(Mine is a pretty informal venue, and last OP I went up against a fleet with six proxied Romulan Pilots. I'm sure I'd feel more strongly about it if they had been mines, but needless to say it was a pretty wacky match.)

Those Romulan Pilots would never fly at my local stores.

kemikos wrote:
anyGould wrote:
kemikos wrote:
jiffk wrote:
So a proxy range ruler is ok as it's part but a replacement ship model is not ok because it's a game piece?


No, the ship model is strictly an aesthetic "part". The actual game "piece" is the base. It's perfectly possible (though confusing) to play a game of Attack Wing with no ship models at all.


I would be curious to know if stores would allow such a thing (playing a game sans models).


You've never popped a ship (particularly one with a model that overhangs quite a bit - Valdore-class, I'm looking at you...) off its base to make measuring maneuvers easier in tight quarters? It happens pretty regularly in our events, and the model is usually left off until the field opens up a bit.


I can honestly say that I've never played a game where we've done that. We just adjust peg height. Also, L-brackets have become very popular at my local venues for marking ships' locations when they need to be moved for measuring close-quarters manervers. You can pick up a 4-pack at Walmart for a couple of bucks.
 
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