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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Uhura and Transwarp: Can Uhura's Ability Take Advantage of It? rss

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Quote:
Nyota Uhura
Federation Crew

Text:

"Discard Uhura immediately before you move in order to change your Maneuver for this round."

Proposed Text:

"Before you move, you may discard Uhura to change your Maneuver for this round."


Quote:
Transwarp Drive
Federation Tech

Text:

"During the activation phase, if your maneuver dial reveals a (straight) 4 or (straight) 5 maneuver, you may instead use a (straight) 6 maneuver."


Situation: The Excelsior with the Uhura and Tanswarp Drive upgrades is activated.

Question: May a player discard Uhura to use her ability to change the Excelsior's maneuver to a Straight 4 or Straight 5 on the dial before revealing it?

Intent: To use Uhura's maneuver-changing ability to take advantage of the Transwarp card.
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Nova Cat
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Yes, that works.
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Xander Fulton
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As a TO, I'd rule "no". Based on the wording on the cards, I'd read the sequence as:

- Set maneuver dial
- Reveal maneuver dial
- If the maneuver you revealed was a '4' or '5' straight, transwarp would let you use a '6' straight, instead
- You are now about to move, so at this point Uhura could trigger (before you move) and change the maneuver to anything else (note that nothing about Uhura "reveals a maneuver dial", which is the trigger for transwarp...you already did that before you even got to Uhura's step)
- You now move
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Brook Gentlestream
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XanderF wrote:
As a TO, I'd rule "no". Based on the wording on the cards, I'd read the sequence as:

- Set maneuver dial
- Reveal maneuver dial
- If the maneuver you revealed was a '4' or '5' straight, transwarp would let you use a '6' straight, instead
- You are now about to move, so at this point Uhura could trigger (before you move) and change the maneuver to anything else (note that nothing about Uhura "reveals a maneuver dial", which is the trigger for transwarp...you already did that before you even got to Uhura's step)
- You now move



Originally, I agreed with this and it does seem at first glance to make a lot of practical sense. After checking the FAQ and consulting the rulebook, however, I'm not as convinced anymore. The part of the text I bolded in the quote above is a huge assumption in the logic. Technically, the ship is about to "execute a maneuver", not necessarily "move".

Game mechanically, the term "move" is a bit ambiguous but we know that it involves more than simply physically moving the piece as the "move" strictly ends after checking for power strain and putting the templates away, but before the ship takes an action (according to the FAQ).

What's a little unclear is where the "move" begins. There's no reason to assume that a ship doesn't start its move by revealing its dial. If a ship hypothetically lost its move for some reason, I wouldn't expect it to be still have to reveal the dial (and possibly to reap benefits from doing so). This would also make a little sense in this hypothetical case since cleanup is also skipped, there's no reason to bring out the dial in the first place if the reveal step is also skipped along with the "move".

This would also make for a decent explanation as to why a ship isn't considered to move twice, even if given bonus maneuvers (as supported by the FAQ). Under this interpretation, a "move" is more than just an executed maneuver -- it would also involve revealing a dial (that had to be subsequently chosen in a previous round) and thus could only be applied once per turn, no matter how much the ship maneuvers. Under this interpretation, "revealing a dial" is actually more important in defining a move than "executing the maneuver".

Finally, the Game Round sequence in the rulebook says that during the activation phase, each ship moves and performs one action. These two things are separated. It is one of the few times "move" is actually used in the rules. Since it says "move and perform an action" rather than "reveal dial, move, and then take an action", I think this is further evidence that "Reveal Dial" is one of the many steps included in the "move" that a ship takes on its turn.



I'm seeing the process more like this:

- All maneuver dials have already been set in a previous phase. Each ship takes turns moving and performing an action.
- When its your ship's turn, it begins its move.
- Uhura could trigger now.
- The dial for this ship is revealed.
- The transwarp could trigger off revealing the dial.
- The template for this maneuver is placed.
- The maneuver is executed.
- We check to see if the ship suffers power strain.
- The templates are all cleaned up.
- The ship's move is complete. The ship can now perform its action.
 
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Xander Fulton
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lordrahvin wrote:
There's no reason to assume that a ship doesn't start its move by revealing its dial.


Except you have cases where a ship does move WITHOUT revealing its dial.

IE., Breen energy dissipator.

It seems to me that we have precedent that 'revealing your maneuver dial' and 'movement' are two distinct, and (sometimes) unrelated steps.

Uhura unquestionably triggers before movement - but she has no interaction with the maneuver dial at all.

Transwarp drive *does* trigger on the maneuver dial.

Given other rules and effects that specifically segregate the maneuver dial from movement...I have to presume the lack of reference to a maneuver dial on Uhura's card, and presence of a reference to the maneuver dial on the transwarp card, is a telling distinction.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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XanderF wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:
There's no reason to assume that a ship doesn't start its move by revealing its dial.


Except you have cases where a ship does move WITHOUT revealing its dial.

IE., Breen energy dissipator.


The energy dissipator says "During the Planning Phase, the owner does not assign a Maneuver Dial to this ship. During the Activation Phase, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned a White 1 [Straight] Manuver."

The Breen Energy dissipator just effects the planning phase, not the move. You're suppose to move as if your ship were assigned a White 1 Straight Maneuver back during the planning phase. This means you should follow all the rules and procedures you normally would if your ship had been assigned that maneuver. I'm arguing above that this could include revealing the dial.

Due to this special specific card effect, you don't have a dial to reveal but your suppose to resolve your move as if you did, as if you had planned a White 1 Straight Maneuver during the Planning Phase all along. The Breen Energy Dissipator doesn't change any of the rules regarding how your ship's Activation Phase resolves, it merely alters the maneuver assigned during the planning stage.

If you did assign a White 1 Straight Maneuver during the Planning Phase, then your first step during the activation phase would be to reveal the dial showing a White 1 Straight Maneuver. So all game effects that trigger off that should happen now.

Then you place templates as if you had assigned a White 1 Straight Maneuver. If you had, then you would use that tiny little straight template and place it in front of your ship. Then you would execute the maneuver. Then you would check for power strain, just as if you had executed a white 1 Straight Maneuver (so no power strain should apply). Then you would cleanup. Then your move would be complete.
 
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Xander Fulton
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lordrahvin wrote:
This means you should follow all the rules and procedures you normally would if your ship had been assigned that maneuver. I'm arguing above that this could include revealing the dial.


You mean, aside from the point when it specifically says do not use a maneuver dial??

Look, there is no point arguing over this. I'm a TO at one of our local stores, if it came up at my venue, I'd say it was not allowed based on the literal reading of the cards - but that's just me.

If Andrew or WizKids decides on an alternate interpretation, that's fine, we can wait for their verdict - but I feel it's pretty clear as it is. EDIT: And I'd say that's a pretty long shot, given we also have a ruling on Transwarp combining with In'Cha, where Andrew specifically notes that just moving does NOT involve 'revealing a dial' (further clarifying my assumption that these are completely distinct, and unrelated, steps), so there would be no interaction.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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XanderF wrote:
EDIT: And I'd say that's a pretty long shot, given we also have a ruling on Transwarp combining with In'Cha, where Andrew specifically notes that just moving does NOT involve 'revealing a dial' (further clarifying my assumption that these are completely distinct, and unrelated, steps), so there would be no interaction.


Actually, this just seems to reinforces my point that there's a world of difference between "moving" and "performing a maneuver", and that you are confusing the two, but whatever. I'm not a big shot TO so why read anything I type, right?

 
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Xander Fulton
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lordrahvin wrote:
XanderF wrote:
EDIT: And I'd say that's a pretty long shot, given we also have a ruling on Transwarp combining with In'Cha, where Andrew specifically notes that just moving does NOT involve 'revealing a dial' (further clarifying my assumption that these are completely distinct, and unrelated, steps), so there would be no interaction.


Actually, this just seems to reinforces my point that there's a world of difference between "moving" and "performing a maneuver"


There *is* a world of difference between them, yes, but specifically neither includes usage of the maneuver dial. THAT - which is the only thing that triggers 'transwarp' - is a distinct phase of the turn that does not interact with other phases.
 
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Larry DeStefano
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I would have to say no. Only because Uhura says you can change your manuver itself and not the dial. The dial is the trigger for Transwarp card. So if you discard Uhura does anybody change their dial? I dont I just grab the template that I want, and go from there. However I would not be shocked if Mr Parks gives us a different ruling. I dont think he will but until I read different I would say no to these cards being used together. Just my 2 cents.

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER.
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XanderF wrote:
As a TO, I'd rule "no". Based on the wording on the cards, I'd read the sequence as:

- Set maneuver dial
- Reveal maneuver dial
- If the maneuver you revealed was a '4' or '5' straight, transwarp would let you use a '6' straight, instead
- You are now about to move, so at this point Uhura could trigger (before you move) and change the maneuver to anything else (note that nothing about Uhura "reveals a maneuver dial", which is the trigger for transwarp...you already did that before you even got to Uhura's step)
- You now move


hadrian132 wrote:
I would have to say no. Only because Uhura says you can change your manuver itself and not the dial. The dial is the trigger for Transwarp card. So if you discard Uhura does anybody change their dial? I dont I just grab the template that I want, and go from there. However I would not be shocked if Mr Parks gives us a different ruling. I dont think he will but until I read different I would say no to these cards being used together. Just my 2 cents.

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER.


Thanks for the answers, folks. I would just point out two things:

The game state will probably change from the time a dial is set in the Planning phase to the point where a ship is activated in the Activation Phase to perform its own moves and actions. Uhura and Transwarp are good cards to use for taking advantage of the changing state.

If a player needs to be careful about the sequencing to take advantage of both, announcing the use of Uhura at the moment of activation, discarding the card, then picking up the maneuver dial to change it to a Straight 4 (or 5) before revealing it would seem to be the proper sequence.
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Justin Hare
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The way it reads, I'm inclined to support the ruling that transwarp doesn't get triggered.
 
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BradyLS wrote:
If a player needs to be careful about the sequencing to take advantage of both, announcing the use of Uhura at the moment of activation, discarding the card, then picking up the maneuver dial to change it to a Straight 4 (or 5) before revealing it would seem to be the proper sequence.


But Uhura doesn't touch the Maneuver Dial, she changes the Maneuver. There's a huge difference there. The first is "this is what I'm planning to do". The second is "this is what I'm actually doing". They are not always the same. See: any instance of crashing ships. You planned to do a straight 2, you actually only moved straight about 1.5 until you ran into another ship.

From the page 9.
Activation Phase
1. Reveal Dial
2. Set Template
3. Execute Maneuver

I guess the question really is, where does Uhura activate? Before or after step 1? I think it's after, because she doesn't change the Maneuver Dial itself. She just lets you pick a different maneuver.
 
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Xander Fulton
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davedujour wrote:
From the page 9.
Activation Phase
1. Reveal Dial
2. Set Template
3. Execute Maneuver

I guess the question really is, where does Uhura activate? Before or after step 1? I think it's after, because she doesn't change the Maneuver Dial itself. She just lets you pick a different maneuver.


A potentially more interesting question is - 'does Uhura take effect between step 1 and 2...or between step 2 and 3?' The card text does say IMMEDIATELY before you move, so a good case could be made for 'between step 2 and 3', making her one of the few methods of getting some kind of pre-measurement before deciding on a change in maneuver...
 
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Dave Benhart
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XanderF wrote:
davedujour wrote:
From the page 9.
Activation Phase
1. Reveal Dial
2. Set Template
3. Execute Maneuver

I guess the question really is, where does Uhura activate? Before or after step 1? I think it's after, because she doesn't change the Maneuver Dial itself. She just lets you pick a different maneuver.


A potentially more interesting question is - 'does Uhura take effect between step 1 and 2...or between step 2 and 3?' The card text does say IMMEDIATELY before you move, so a good case could be made for 'between step 2 and 3', making her one of the few methods of getting some kind of pre-measurement before deciding on a change in maneuver...


True. I've only had Uhura used against me once. He revealed his dial but was pondering to use Uhura and not crash or not. I said "but once you put a template near the table that's your move" and he agreed on the "can't pre-measure movements" rule. It was all very friendly, but I could see the argument for Uhura to allow you to change a move between steps 2 & 3.
 
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Ted Kay
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I'm inclined to think that Uhura's intent allows a person to alter their Maneuver that they dialed in, before it is revealed, which then acts as though it were the intended maneuver the whole time.

Just how I've always seen it functioning, may not be right but would love to see some word from Andrew one way or another.

For a one-time effect, I'd hope it would be able to trigger Transwarp or prevent Muon damage.
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Rob Tsuk
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XanderF wrote:

A potentially more interesting question is - 'does Uhura take effect between step 1 and 2...or between step 2 and 3?' The card text does say IMMEDIATELY before you move, so a good case could be made for 'between step 2 and 3', making her one of the few methods of getting some kind of pre-measurement before deciding on a change in maneuver...


It was answered before in Re: Transwarp Question - Didn't see in FAQ or with search and the answer is no pre-measuring except for sensor echo.
 
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This one is certainly a close call, but to be consistent with previous rulings, Uhura cannot be combined with the Transwarp Drive since she does not technically change the dial itself.

Thematically, think of it as a last minute change and you don't have time to fire up the ol' Transwarp! laugh

Andrew
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Thanks for the ruling, Andrew.
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FortuneFavorTheBold wrote:
I'm inclined to think that Uhura's intent allows a person to alter their Maneuver that they dialed in, before it is revealed, which then acts as though it were the intended maneuver the whole time.

Just how I've always seen it functioning, may not be right but would love to see some word from Andrew one way or another.

For a one-time effect, I'd hope it would be able to trigger Transwarp or prevent Muon damage.


I agree with you on all points, but we are invalidated over the use of Uhura and Transwarp. There is, however, still a slim way to enjoy the advantages of having both: If the situation looks grim and you don't know where the enemy will go, dial a Straight 4 (or 5). Uhura can still bail you out with a maneuver change or you can go to Transwarp instead, if you want.
 
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