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Subject: Egg of Chaos rss

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Igor Larchenko
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Why this card has symbols of territory and books? It's illogical. This card is the creature!

We see text on it: "Counts as Children of the Dragon, Mischievous Fairies and Homesteaders" (green, red or yellow, NOT black).

 
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Gillum the Stoor
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Pard wrote:
Why this card has symbols of territory and books? It's illogical. This card is the creature!

We see text on it: "Counts as Children of the Dragon, Mischievous Fairies and Homesteaders" (green, red or yellow, NOT black).

I'm not sure whether your question is about the rules or the theme.

The rules say "The Egg of Chaos also counts as all factions and all card types" (i.e., Character, Story, or Home).

This makes it a very powerful card. See my discussion here.

The power is mitigated some (especially early in the game) by the fact that it can be easily flipped and hunted. In a recent game, one play played two of them and they both got flipped early on. (He later unflipped them with some effort).

If your question is thematic, I'm not sure of the answer. One can certainly imagine a magical egg that could grow into Dragon, Fairy, Knight, or even Demon - but into a Castle or a Book? Maybe that requires even more magic!

If experience ends up showing that the card is too powerful, limiting it to being of the Character type might be the most thematic way.
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Igor Larchenko
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gillum wrote:
This makes it a very powerful card.

Yes, but we don't need 3 additional jokers (5 total).

gillum wrote:
The rules say "The Egg of Chaos also counts as all factions and all card types" (i.e., Character, Story, or Home)

But card text ("Counts as Children of the Dragon, Mischievous Fairies and Homesteaders") contradicts it. And we know (in all games), that card text always is primary!

gillum wrote:
a magical egg that could grow into ... a Castle or a Book

As I said: it's illogical and stupid...
 
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Pard wrote:
gillum wrote:
The rules say "The Egg of Chaos also counts as all factions and all card types" (i.e., Character, Story, or Home)

But card text ("Counts as Children of the Dragon, Mischievous Fairies and Homesteaders") contradicts it. And we know (in all games), that card text always is primary!

The rules and the cards are consistent.

The rules say all types. The card icons show all types.

Perhaps the card text may overrule printed rules, but I don't know that card text is generally considered to overrule card icons.

I think that the rules are very clear for the "jokers":

Trickster is -1 points.
Trickster can stand for any one named card.
Trickster is always Character.
Trickster is always Shadow; thus, Trickster cannot be flipped by Demon, Vampire, or Werewolf.

Egg is 2 points.
Egg can stand for three specific named cards and no others.
Egg is Character, Book, and Place.
Egg is Shadow, Fairy, Dragon, and Empire; thus, Egg can be flipped by any of Demon, Vampire, or Werewolf.

You don't have to like rules for the Egg (and I'm not sure that I do), but I think that they are pretty clear.
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Igor Larchenko
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gillum wrote:
Trickster can stand for any one named card.
Trickster is always Character.

Once Trickster can stand for any card, it can be Character, Book or Place. It's obvious. We always play such.

Therefore, once Egg can stand for Dragon, Fairy or Homesteader only, it's Character. It's clear, and rules (and card) are wrong. It's my opinion. Thanks.
 
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Pard wrote:
gillum wrote:
Trickster can stand for any one named card.
Trickster is always Character.

Once Trickster can stand for any card, it can be Character, Book or Place. It's obvious. We always play such.

I meant the following.

The Trickster can stand for any one named card, and that named card could be a Character, Book or Place.

In the original game, there was never any value in counting the Trickster as a named Book card, as there were no other card whose depended upon a specific named Book card.

But the Trickster is always a Shadow card. It counts towards Shadow King's Tale Chapter 1 (points for most Shadow cards). It never counts for Dragon's Tale Chapter 1 (most Dragons), Fairy's Tale Chapter 1 (most Fairies), or Knight's Tale Chapter 1 (most Knights).

The Trickster is always a Character card. It counts towards Shadow King's Tale Chapter 4 (points for most Character cards). It never counts for Shadow King's Tale Chapter 2 (most Places), or Shadow King's Tale Chapter 3 (most Books).

The What's Your Game rules are very explicit on this: "it cannot be used, instead, to satisfy conditions requiring specific categories or typologies."
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Cameron McKenzie
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I agree.

The only thing you can choose is the NAME of the trickster card. At the end of the game, you name it whatever you want, but it is still a shadow character. By naming it a certain thing, other cards may score more points.

With the egg, you don't get any choice at all. It is always a character, a house, a book, yellow, green, red, and black. It is also considered to be named all three of the listed cards (it is named all of these things, you don't have to choose which one)


They are both "wild" in a way, but not the same. The egg has the advantage of being higher value, and counting as more things in total, while the trickster has the advantage of potentially being named something which the egg is not (like a fairy queen or gold dragon, which could give big points)

The trickster is also not affected by many of the things that the egg is affected by (since it doesn't have all the card types and factions). This could be a good or bad thing depending on the situation.
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Chuck Mitchell

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gillum wrote:
Pard wrote:
gillum wrote:
Trickster can stand for any one named card.
Trickster is always Character.

Once Trickster can stand for any card, it can be Character, Book or Place. It's obvious. We always play such.

I meant the following.

The Trickster can stand for any one named card, and that named card could be a Character, Book or Place.

In the original game, there was never any value in counting the Trickster as a named Book card, as there were no other card whose depended upon a specific named Book card.

But the Trickster is always a Shadow card. It counts towards Shadow King's Tale Chapter 1 (points for most Shadow cards). It never counts for Dragon's Tale Chapter 1 (most Dragons), Fairy's Tale Chapter 1 (most Fairies), or Knight's Tale Chapter 1 (most Knights).

The Trickster is always a Character card. It counts towards Shadow King's Tale Chapter 4 (points for most Character cards). It never counts for Shadow King's Tale Chapter 2 (most Places), or Shadow King's Tale Chapter 3 (most Books).

The What's Your Game rules are very explicit on this: "it cannot be used, instead, to satisfy conditions requiring specific categories or typologies."


I am confused. In the early part of your post, you say Trickster can be Character, Book or Place.

Then later in the post, you say Trickster is always a Character card.

I'm lost.
..........

Also, you say Trickster is always a Shadow card. Yet the example in the Z-Man rules has the Trickster counting as a Green/Dragonvale in order to fulfill Dragon's Tale-Chapter 4.

Again, I'm confused.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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chuckm1961 wrote:


I am confused. In the early part of your post, you say Trickster can be Character, Book or Place.

Then later in the post, you say Trickster is always a Character card.


The Trickster can be named after any card, including books or places. This changes the Trickter's name but it doesn't change anything else about it the Trickster. It is still a shadow character.

Quote:

Also, you say Trickster is always a Shadow card. Yet the example in the Z-Man rules has the Trickster counting as a Green/Dragonvale in order to fulfill Dragon's Tale-Chapter 4.


If I choose to give Trickster the name "Gold Dragon", then it is now a Shadow Character named "Gold Dragon" worth -1 point. It does not inherit any other attributes from another card even if that other card also happens to be named "Gold Dragon"

Dragon's Tale Chapter 4 awards you points if you have a "Gold Dragon". It doesn't depend at all what faction or card type that "Gold Dragon" is. So, a Trickster that has been renamed "Gold Dragon" can satisfy the card.

The Trickster cannot be counted for scoring a story that needs two dragonvale cards, because the Trickster is not a dragonvale card under any circumstance, even if you name her "Gold Dragon" or anything else of the sort.
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chuckm1961 wrote:
In the early part of your post, you say Trickster can be Character, Book or Place.

Then later in the post, you say Trickster is always a Character card.

The Egg of Chaos can be Character, Book or Place.

The Trickster can be only Character.

chuckm1961 wrote:
You say Trickster is always a Shadow card. Yet the example in the Z-Man rules has the Trickster counting as a Green/Dragonvale in order to fulfill Dragon's Tale-Chapter 4.

Think about it this way.

Every card has (1) a name; (2) a category (e.g., character); and (3) a faction (e.g., Shadow).

The value of a variable-point card is determined by how many cards you have with a specified name. For example, a Dwarven Warrior card is worth 3 points for every card you have with the name "Sky Dance Dragon".

In addition, some conditional-point cards give value only if you have a card or cards with certain names. For example, Fairy Tale Chapter 4 gives you 9 points only if you have a card with name "Fairy Queen"; Fairy Tale Chapter 2 gives you 7 points if you cards with the names "Fairy Circle" and "Spirit of the Spring".

A Trickster can take one other name, but its category is always character and its faction is always Shadow.

In the example to which you refer, the Trickster takes the name "Golden Dragon". That allows you to get the 9 points for Dragon Tale Chapter 4. While it is true that the actual Golden Dragon card (as printed) has faction Dragon, it is only the name ("Golden Dragon") that is required to get the 9 points for Dragon Tale Chapter 4.

The faction of a card is important for something like Dragon's Tale Chapter 1: you need to hold the most cards with faction Dragon. The Trickster cannot help you here, even though the Trickster can take the name "Golden Dragon" - and the real Golden Dragon is of faction Dragon.

The faction of a card is also important for something like Demon. If someone plays Demon, you must flip a card with faction Dragon. But you would never have to flip Trickster, even if you want it to take the name "Golden Dragon" at the end of the game. (In fact, you don't decide what one name the Trickster takes till the end of the game.) The Trickster is of the Shadow faction and is unaffected by Demon.

The Egg of Chaos is different. It can't take any name at all like Trickster. It can take only the following names: Mischievous Fairy; Homesteader; Dragon Child. In fact, the Egg can take all three names! (The Trickster can take only one name.)

The Egg doesn't have its own faction either. It counts as all four factions. The Egg can help you with Fairy Tale Chapter 1 by counting as a Fairy card. In fact, it could help you also with Dragon Tale Chapter 1, Knight's Tale Chapter 1, and Shadow King's Tale Chapter 1, all at the same time! As I said before, the Trickster counts only as the Shadow faction. It could help you only with Shadow King's Tale Chapter 1 (which rewards most Shadow cards).

If someone plays Demon and you have an Egg but no real Dragon card showing, you must flip the Egg. That is because Demon requires you to flip a Dragon, and the Egg counts as a Dragon. But if you have the Trickster and no Dragon card showing, the Demon doesn't do anything to you, because the Trickster is of the Shadow faction - not Dragon.

The category of a card (character, book, place) counts for a few things. For example, Shadow King's Tale Chapter 2 gives you 7 points if you have the most places. The Trickster won't help you here - it is always a character, never a place. But an Egg could help you - it can be a character or a place or a book - or all three if that helps you.

Being of multiple categories is all good for the Egg - there is never anything bad about being a category (i.e., there are no cards that require you to flip based on category).
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MasterDinadan wrote:
If I choose to give Trickster the name "Gold Dragon", then it is now a Shadow Character named "Gold Dragon" worth -1 point.

This last part is a really good point.

In addition to name, category, and faction, every card has a point value.

Suppose you have three Mischievous Fairies and one Trickster (which you want to name Mischievous Fairy).

Each of the Mischievous Fairies has the following four properties:
- Name = Mischievous Fairy
- Category = character
- Faction = Fairy
- Value = 1 point for every card with name "Mischievous Fairy"

The Trickster has the following four properties:
- Name = Mischievous Fairy (as renamed by you)
- Category = character (printed on card - cannot be changed)
- Faction = Shadow (printed on card - cannot be changed)
- Value = -1 (printed on card - cannot be changed)

Since you have four cards with name "Mischievous Fairy", each of the three cards printed with that name (each worth 1 point for every card with name "Mischievous Fairy") is worth 4 points. That's 3x4 = 12.

The Trickster is worth -1 regardless of how you renamed it.

Your total score for these four cards is 12-1 = 11.
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