Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
15 Posts

Twilight Imperium (Third Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Faster combat rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andy Day

League City
Texas
msg tools
mb
Greetings,
I am working on it there and to try to make twilight imperium Take four hours. After a play test of the variant,it looks like one thing that will need to change is combat. I'd like some insight on how to make battles faster. The goal is:
1. Retain the feel of each ship.
2. Try to retain the core combat stats, so that we don't have to revise combat related AC and PC.

What do you think?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Campos
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In the game federation and empire you add up all of the combat value of the ships on each side of a battle, and then you roll on a table which tells you what percentage of your total combat value is actually applied as damage.

To make combat faster, I would suggest something similar. Probably a 2D10 table to keep it from being too randomized. Then each player only has to make a single roll per combat phase. Roll, remove casualties, repeat.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samuel C.
United States
Deshler
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you have multiple colors of dice you can just say something like:

"orange are cruisers, black are dreadnaughts, blue are fighter"

and chuck all the dice at once.

But I think you're approaching the problem from the wrong end. Battle isn't what makes the game take a long time, its the time between battles. Its how long you take to set up (can be done pre-game if you trust one player enough, or do random setups or a half-dozen other things in other forum topics), its how long people take to think on their turn, its whether you allow the next person to go while one guy is doing a build action.

Also, have someone always keeping track of whose turn it is, and who is next. If a battle is happening and the next guy doesn't care who wins for his next activation, then let him go ahead and take his turn during the battle.

My friends and I have had no trouble reducing the game to about an hour per player, hour and a half with a lot of expansion stuff like reps, leaders, etc.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Samuel C.
United States
Deshler
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kashre wrote:
In the game federation and empire you add up all of the combat value of the ships on each side of a battle, and then you roll on a table which tells you what percentage of your total combat value is actually applied as damage.

To make combat faster, I would suggest something similar. Probably a 2D10 table to keep it from being too randomized. Then each player only has to make a single roll per combat phase. Roll, remove casualties, repeat.



I really don't think this will help as much as it does in concept. By the time you figure out what you're rolling for you could have just rolled.

And besides, that really loses a lot of flavor to the battle, and then makes 'direct hit' cards (among others) useless.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Robb
United States
Calais
Maine
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb


I tend to agree with Samuel
it is the "other stuff" that
slows the game down

on the other hand . . .

we just finished a 5 player game that
lasted 10 hours and 50 minutes - everybody
loved it and wants to play again
of course, 3 of the 5 were newbies

but it is the long time IMHO that makes
TI3 the wonderful experience it is

I'm not sure I want to speed it up
Just my opinion . . . .
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Starkiller
United States
Wasilla
Alaska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mathmagician wrote:
If you have multiple colors of dice you can just say something like:

"orange are cruisers, black are dreadnaughts, blue are fighter"

and chuck all the dice at once.

You'd be surprised how much this speeds the game up! Doesn't seem like much, but it works.
You need more than 4 dice for bigger battles, and different colors allows you to combine rolls. Shoot, if you have 10 dice in 3 colors, you can sometimes roll the small battles in one go.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian Smith
United States
Alabama
flag msg tools
mb
I don't think pointing out that there are other things that make the game take longer helps when he's presumably including multiple house rules to cut game time. Despite the fact that I am doubtful the game could retain its epic feel with a time cut, here's an idea:

During combat, each side may only roll for a maximum of 6 units each combat round. You must roll for at least 1 of each unit type if able. If there are less than 6 unit types, the remaining rolls must be assigned to the unit type with the most additional ships remaining, one at a time at the discretion of the owner in case of ties. Additional ships instead add a +2 bonus to one roll of the same ship type, distributed as evenly as possible.

Example A: 2 carriers, 12 fighters, cybernetics

instead of rolling 14 dice you roll 6: 1 carrier and 5 fighters

The carrier die gets a +2 from the second carrier in the system, and so it hits on an 7.

There are 7 fighters left, so each fighter die will get +2 and 2 of the fighters will get an extra +2. Three fighters will hit on a 6, and the other two will hit on a 4.

Example B: 2 cruisers, 3 destroyers, 1 carrier, 3 fighters, hylar V assault

instead of rolling 9 dice you roll 6: 1 cruiser, 2 destroyers, 1 carrier, 2 fighters.

you do pre combat stuff. then the cruiser hits on a 4, destroyer a hits on a 6, destroyer b hits on an 8, fighter a hits on a 7, fighter b hits on a 9, carrier hits on a 9.

I'm sure this would drastically change combat values, and example B may not even look like much of an improvement, but if you can internalize the rules, it really cuts out a lot of dice and the onerous hit tallying. this is just an off the cuff suggestion though, and I haven't really thought it through.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bob mackenzie
msg tools
I dont like any idea so far on this thread, i have been looking to reduce combat times myself (mostly because its a pain when missing the whole time for both players.

Do note that the more dice u have, the bigger battles can be reduced time wise with 2 people rolling at the same time.

Also bear in mind that twilight isnt meant to be a heavy battle focused game, most early game battles are between carrier fleets and ground forces. or once you get to late game, usually the battles are for those few last victory points, so it adds tension to the game to decide the outcome so to speak.

might be nice to have a computer generated combat, then again its a board game, so atm im just gonna stick with dice rolling
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Day

League City
Texas
msg tools
mb
kashre wrote:
In the game federation and empire you add up all of the combat value of the ships on each side of a battle, and then you roll on a table which tells you what percentage of your total combat value is actually applied as damage.

To make combat faster, I would suggest something similar. Probably a 2D10 table to keep it from being too randomized. Then each player only has to make a single roll per combat phase. Roll, remove casualties, repeat.


Though I agree with Samuel that this wouldn't speed up combat, I like the spirit of your idea. It is outside the box and creative. I'd like to expand on it a bit by making it so the combat is resolved entirely by one die roll. Much like those old school hex-and-counter games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Epp
Canada
Winnipeg
Manitoba
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just off the top of my head:

Only 1 round of combat; add up the combat values of every ship (like 11 - to hit number), or you could use straight resource values but that wouldn't allow tech to do anything for your ships.

Fighter gives 2 (11-9)
Dreadnaught gives 6 (11-5)
Warsun gives 21 (11-3)x3

Each player rolls a die and adds that to the total (we need SOME variability after all)

Bonus extra die for the attacker

Bonus extra die for largest fleet value

Add up and divide by 10, inflict that many casualties on eachother.

Largest remaining strength wins, loser retreats.

You may still want to do precombat as pre normal combat, so as not to neuter certain techs and abilities.

It's alittle mathy but it saves on die rolling. It's a little like Game of Thrones I guess.


?viable
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Allen
Australia
TERALBA
NSW
flag msg tools
The space left intentionally blank
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you were clever enough you could combine all ships with the same combat value into a single dice roll that determines how many hits they collectively score. This would speed up battles with lots of fighters/carriers/destroyers and GFs too.

e.g. you have 6 fighters. Roll 1D10.
1-3=0 hits, 4-7=1 hit, 8-9=2 hits, 10=3 hits.

The Maths would be a bit tricky though
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Day

League City
Texas
msg tools
mb
Eppic wrote:
Just off the top of my head:

Only 1 round of combat; add up the combat values of every ship (like 11 - to hit number), or you could use straight resource values but that wouldn't allow tech to do anything for your ships.

Fighter gives 2 (11-9)
Dreadnaught gives 6 (11-5)
Warsun gives 21 (11-3)x3

Each player rolls a die and adds that to the total (we need SOME variability after all)

Bonus extra die for the attacker

Bonus extra die for largest fleet value

Add up and divide by 10, inflict that many casualties on eachother.

Largest remaining strength wins, loser retreats.

You may still want to do precombat as pre normal combat, so as not to neuter certain techs and abilities.

It's alittle mathy but it saves on die rolling. It's a little like Game of Thrones I guess.


?viable

This is along the lines of the hex-and-counter combat idea I was musing. Though in my experience fleets tend to wipe eachother out. This method would sharply reduce battle casualties.

Option 2: "bucket of dice." This is like Exodus, though I thought it up before Exodus. Ships roll more dice if they're more powerful. Destroyers roll 1 die, cruisers 2, dreads 4, stuff like that. Each die would require the same hit number-I'm thinking 8, but 7 may be better. This doesn't have a huge impact on the game components, though a few things have to be revised, esp techs. It also takes... Buckets of dice. I've played D10 heavy RPGs so I have a lot of experience with how a bit roll with lots of dice is faster than several smaller rolls with only a few dice.

Idea 3: 106. Roll different dice types for different ships, but they all shoot at the same target number. To keep it simple I'd make the target number 5, and roll d6 for destroyers, fighters, and carriers, D10 for cruisers, 2D10 for dreads. Techs can upgrade dice by a step: D6 - D8, D10-d12. This is along the same theory that looking for the same number will reduce the time a roll will take. It'd also give different ships a slightly different "feel."

Stephen: I like your idea as well. I'll ponder on it.

P.S. We do lots of combat in our games. At least 2-3 small battles per round. This is because we always use battle heavy objectives.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Allen
Australia
TERALBA
NSW
flag msg tools
The space left intentionally blank
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gylthinel wrote:

Stephen: I like your idea as well. I'll ponder on it.


I just posted this, take a look

Single roll for multiple units in battle [xlsx]
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Day

League City
Texas
msg tools
mb
some_guy wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:

Stephen: I like your idea as well. I'll ponder on it.


I just posted this, take a look

Single roll for multiple units in battle [xlsx]

I'm not sure that I understand your table...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Allen
Australia
TERALBA
NSW
flag msg tools
The space left intentionally blank
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gylthinel wrote:
some_guy wrote:
Gylthinel wrote:

Stephen: I like your idea as well. I'll ponder on it.


I just posted this, take a look

Single roll for multiple units in battle [xlsx]

I'm not sure that I understand your table...


There's an example given down the bottom of the page. Lets look at another though.

Let's say you have 5 cruisers with Hylar V (Combat Value = 6)
1) enter 6 in green box at top
2) find row in "No.Units" equal to 5. This row reads: -,2,5,8,10,-
3) Roll one D10
4) if you roll 1-2 the you got 1 hit,
if you roll 3-5 you got 2 hits,
if you rolled 6-8 you got 3 hits and
if you rolled 9-10 you got 4 hits.
(you cannot score 0 or 5 hits)

I have to admit that there is a significant amount of rounding off in this table, so things with very low probabilities are considered impossible. So while it IS possible to get 0 or 5 hits in a real game it is rather unlikely (approx 3% probability each). That is not ideal, but it would speed up some battles and reduce the randomness a bit without making the battles too predictable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.