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Subject: Moderating discussion of immoral retailer behaviors rss

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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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I find the conclusion of this thread to be outrageous.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1147648/hobby-lobby-perfect-...

While some of the posters made their opinions known in a childish and ugly way that should be moderated under other provisions, the conclusion laid out is just awful and damaging to the community.

If a retailer wants to step out on a political ledge, discussion of that choice cannot in good faith be restricted to the RSP forum. Yes, it's contentious. Yes, it's volatile. Sanitizing mention of the retailer is not a solution that respects anyones interests.

In the current instance, I feel the Hobby Lobby corporate position is about telling people what they can do with their fairly earned compensation. That this part of their compensation is tied up in a health insurance mandate is kind of irrelevant: this is functional equivalent, to me, of restricting people from spending their cash on items the employer does not approve of.

You don't need to agree with me to see how from my lens Hobby Lobby is a store people need to strongly advised to avoid, or at least be informed so they make a conscious choice.

Electing to bar this voice from all but a specific part of the site, where it isn't very useful or salient to the ongoing and real issue of social oppression of a religious employer, is functionally equivalent to endorsing the position of the opposition. This is important as there are a lot of social conservatives on this site whose interests will be specifically advanced under the guise of keeping the peace.

Your job in moderating this site is to ensure we comport ourselves with dignity, treat others with respect, and act like grown ups. Silencing a minority on an actually important issue is pretty substantial abdication of actually dealing with the issues. Engage with the real problem, sanction the actually offensive behaviours, don't muffle and silence those who would choose to speak against the last vestiges of theocratic tyranny and control in the modern era.


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Jonathan Harrison
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I would subscribe but I think I’ll just take a screenshot of this thread while it lasts to remember it by afterward.

apotheos wrote:
You don't need to agree with me to see how from my lens ...

Ah, but you don’t need to agree with me to see how from my lens ...

. . .

See? We’re already at an impasse. And as always, everything works both ways. Every argument you made out of your emotional investment anyone else can make out of the opposite investment.

I could equally argue that BGG is taking sides for your position by BGG’s having prevented me from arguing with you all over Hot Deals.


The fact is: If you are willing to accept your own logic on its own terms (if you are not for me, then you are against me!), then you must ultimately conclude that BGG is not taking sides by asking people not to discuss volatile non–game-related subjects outside of the forum graciously set aside for discussion of those subjects.

Your desire to crusade on behalf of your own point of view outside that forum may make you consequently feel as if you’re being persecuted, but if you think about it a little you should see that we are all, on both sides of each issue like this one, being equally persecuted ... which is to say equally not persecuted. Why? Because every point you make can be made in its exact equivalent, with equal validity, from the opposite point of view:

You want BGG to open Hot Deals/Discussing Retailers/etc. to RSP discussion—otherwise BGG is supporting the points of view you want to argue against in Discussing Retailers.

I want (well, I actually don’t) BGG to open these same fora to RSP discussion—otherwise BGG must be supporting the points of view I want to argue against in D/R.

See? Everybody can say this with equal validity. Everyone would be wrong.


If you aren’t for me, you must be against me! can be equally said by everyone, to exactly the same effect. But we can’t all be right at once saying it. Perhaps BGG really isn’t taking sides by merely having cramped your own irrepressible personal style.


I am unendingly for keeping the kind of diatribe in your OP exactly where it belongs: in RSP. I would have been surprised to have seen any other moderator response to the thread you linked than the one I saw. That was an awful thread derail to the OP, and I’m glad it was shut down as I always am when the set morality = my_opinion brigade descend. The Hot Deals and Discussing Retailers fora aren’t there to be personal soapboxes free for the co-opting in service of political or religious crusades.
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apotheos wrote:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1147648/hobby-lobby-perfect-...


If a retailer wants to step out on a political ledge, discussion of that choice cannot in good faith be restricted to the RSP forum. Yes, it's contentious. Yes, it's volatile. Sanitizing mention of the retailer is not a solution that respects anyones interests.


Personally, I don't find felt-lined dice trays to be all that contentious.
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Rich Shipley
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Political topics get ugly quickly and there's no reason for them to be in the Hot Deals topic. People that care about the politics should know about it already or they can peruse the RSP forum. Possibly a non-partisan pointer to a discussion there would be allowed. And to risk engaging slightly in politics here, they are challenging a law in court, which is what we want people to do when they disagree. However the case turns out, we will learn something from the process.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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HuginnGreiling wrote:

I could equally argue that BGG is taking sides for your position by BGG’s having prevented me from arguing with you all over Hot Deals.


The solution isn't carte blanche open season on the issue in every forum. You've made a lot of assumptions.

Nor is the solution plugging our ears and pretending it isn't happening.

When a retailer is the topic of conversation, the reputation of that retailer is important to the discourse. A polite mention on their morally questionable practices should absolutely be allowed - silencing that, just because it's complicated, endorse the status quo and deprives the minority of agency.


 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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zuludawn wrote:

Personally, I don't find felt-lined dice trays to be all that contentious.


That is because the status quo endorses the felt cartels. You are just blind because you do not wish to see. cool
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Summed up: If you don't agree with me, you shouldn't have a voice. But if you do agree with me, you should be able to push my agenda with me.


These topics are contentious, and rightly belong in the RSP thread. It is, afterall, for Religion (yep, that's part of what's being discussed), Sex (another part) and Politics (hey, all 3). Not Hot Deals, or any other area of the site not relating to those issues.
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J J
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I am so sick of Canadians; their innumerable heinous crimes against humanity are incontrovertibly catalogued throughout history. Everyone needs to be warned not to go anywhere near them - at the very least, if they don't knife you out of hand, casually gutting you like a fish just because you draw breath, then the assorted plagues they carry will finish you off. Not to mention their not-really-hidden agenda of global conquest (beginning with the so-called "Defense Scheme No. 1") and terror.

All this is known. All this is inarguable. Any right-minded person can see how important it is to warn people. Somebody has got to do something.

And yet BGG continually takes their side by shutting down anything that gets posted in the regional forums and guilds to notify anyone who might consider going there. It has come to the point where all decent people have to start asking - is BGG nothing more than a cat's paw of... them?
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J J
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Dang, forgot some punctuation in there:

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Shawn George
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apotheos wrote:
I find the conclusion of this thread to be outrageous.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1147648/hobby-lobby-perfect-...

While some of the posters made their opinions known in a childish and ugly way that should be moderated under other provisions, the conclusion laid out is just awful and damaging to the community.


The conclusion that political topics belong in the politics forum? The fact that this is the exact same treatment that every political thread derailment gets on this site? Tell me again how "damaging" that is.

Quote:
If a retailer wants to step out on a political ledge, discussion of that choice cannot in good faith be restricted to the RSP forum. Yes, it's contentious. Yes, it's volatile. Sanitizing mention of the retailer is not a solution that respects anyones interests.


Sure it can. If Miniature Market started publicly announcing their support for Planned Parenthood on their site, I would similarly expect all discussion regarding that decision to be confined to the RSP forum. I come to BGG to discuss games. I go to the Hot Deals forum to discuss Hot Deals. When RSP leaks, it makes for a more miserable experience for all involved.

Quote:
In the current instance, I feel the Hobby Lobby corporate position is about telling people what they can do with their fairly earned compensation. That this part of their compensation is tied up in a health insurance mandate is kind of irrelevant: this is functional equivalent, to me, of restricting people from spending their cash on items the employer does not approve of.


Not even going to address how incorrect this paragraph is, but if I did, I would do so in RSP.

Quote:
You don't need to agree with me to see how from my lens Hobby Lobby is a store people need to strongly advised to avoid, or at least be informed so they make a conscious choice.


There are plenty of places for people to "educate" themselves on what's going on with Hobby Lobby right now. Littering every other Hot Deals thread with one-off comments about how "Hobby Lobby hates women" doesn't lead to a well-informed userbase.

Quote:
Electing to bar this voice from all but a specific part of the site, where it isn't very useful or salient to the ongoing and real issue of social oppression of a religious employer, is functionally equivalent to endorsing the position of the opposition. This is important as there are a lot of social conservatives on this site whose interests will be specifically advanced under the guise of keeping the peace.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. As I said earlier, this is a completely consistent application of policy from the moderators. Political posts belong in RSP. Period. It's absolutely absurd to claim that the moderators are endorsing any particular political position by being consistent.

Quote:
Your job in moderating this site is to ensure we comport ourselves with dignity, treat others with respect, and act like grown ups.


Then it's a good thing that they stepped into that thread, because it was going downhill fast.

Quote:
Silencing a minority on an actually important issue is pretty substantial abdication of actually dealing with the issues. Engage with the real problem, sanction the actually offensive behaviours, don't muffle and silence those who would choose to speak against the last vestiges of theocratic tyranny and control in the modern era.


They're not silencing anyone. They're locking a thread that went off topic, and telling them the proper place to hold that conversation. As you can see, the off-topic posts are still accessible, they were never deleted.

Political posts go in RSP because that's what the users want. Period. It has NOTHING to do with the political slant of the conversation. Just because you perceive yourself to be an oppressed minority, doesn't mean that your opinion gets special treatment.

This site isn't "CurrentEventsGeek". It's not "ReligiousOppressionGeek". It's BoardGameGeek.
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apotheos wrote:
Silencing a minority on an actually important issue is pretty substantial abdication of actually dealing with the issues. Engage with the real problem, sanction the actually offensive behaviours, don't muffle and silence those who would choose to speak against the last vestiges of theocratic tyranny and control in the modern era.


How do you have a minority speaking out against the last vestiges of anything?
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Gary Boyd
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zuludawn wrote:
apotheos wrote:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1147648/hobby-lobby-perfect-...


If a retailer wants to step out on a political ledge, discussion of that choice cannot in good faith be restricted to the RSP forum. Yes, it's contentious. Yes, it's volatile. Sanitizing mention of the retailer is not a solution that respects anyones interests.


Personally, I don't find felt-lined dice trays to be all that contentious.


The felt was blessed by Unicorns but was manufactured by the unborn. Now do you understand?
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UndeadViking wrote:
apotheos wrote:
Silencing a minority on an actually important issue is pretty substantial abdication of actually dealing with the issues. Engage with the real problem, sanction the actually offensive behaviours, don't muffle and silence those who would choose to speak against the last vestiges of theocratic tyranny and control in the modern era.


How do you have a minority speaking out against the last vestiges of anything?

Hmm? I guess you're suggesting there's a contradiction, but I don't see one. There are all kinds of issues which probably many or most people agree on, but about which only a minority of people actively speak out in BGG threads (for a great variety of reasons).
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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While I was clearly a glass or two of wine past the point where I should have been writing the original post, my original point is still a very valid one.

The issue is contentious.
The issue is contentious, because it is important.
Banning mention of it avoids the issue, but is censorship of the worst sort. The ruling as stands in that thread is ... well I like to clearly mention the things BGG does that stand between me being a financial backer of the site. This is one of those things.

I'd like to think that even someone who stands on the opposite side of the issue should agree that smothering it with censorship is not the solution.
 
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apotheos wrote:


I'd like to think that even someone who stands on the opposite side of the issue should agree that smothering it with censorship is not the solution.


I suppose it wouldn't help you to have someone on the same side of the issue agreeing with BGG's resolution? whistle
 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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McJarvis wrote:
apotheos wrote:


I'd like to think that even someone who stands on the opposite side of the issue should agree that smothering it with censorship is not the solution.


I suppose it wouldn't help you to have someone on the same side of the issue agreeing with BGG's resolution? whistle


Everyone is invited to share their opinions. I understand my position is not popular.
 
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apotheos wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
apotheos wrote:


I'd like to think that even someone who stands on the opposite side of the issue should agree that smothering it with censorship is not the solution.


I suppose it wouldn't help you to have someone on the same side of the issue agreeing with BGG's resolution? whistle


Everyone is invited to share their opinions. I understand my position is not popular.
I am 100% against what the retailer is doing, but I am also 100% against this information being discussed outside the BGG channels that are set up already to discuss it.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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crambaza wrote:
apotheos wrote:
McJarvis wrote:
apotheos wrote:


I'd like to think that even someone who stands on the opposite side of the issue should agree that smothering it with censorship is not the solution.


I suppose it wouldn't help you to have someone on the same side of the issue agreeing with BGG's resolution? whistle


Everyone is invited to share their opinions. I understand my position is not popular.
I am 100% against what the retailer is doing, but I am also 100% against this information being discussed outside the BGG channels that are set up already to discuss it.


Why? The reputation of a merchant is relevant to any discussion of conducting business with the merchant, no?
 
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apotheos wrote:
crambaza wrote:
I am 100% against what the retailer is doing, but I am also 100% against this information being discussed outside the BGG channels that are set up already to discuss it.


Why? The reputation of a merchant is relevant to any discussion of conducting business with the merchant, no?
When I am in my BGG mindset, I tend to want to avoid all this outside world baggage, and just focus on my gaming. If I feel adventurous, I know I can find any and all manner of these topics in RSP.

I find that those interested enough to let this information influence their merchant choices, would already know about it, so bringing it up outside the approved channels seems non-productive.

I don't have any love lost for those that don't know, but would allow it to influence their choices. They have already decided to not research the world around them, and I don't think it's BGG's place to tell them.
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apotheos wrote:
censorship




apotheos wrote:
Why? The reputation of a merchant is relevant to any discussion of conducting business with the merchant, no?


Their professional reputation is...i.e. your experience with them as a customer. If a company is slow to ship products, has rude customer service associates, they spam you with unsolicited emails, or charges more than the listed price, then sure, discuss away in Discussing Retailers.

A company's political or religious philosophies are not relevant to the shopping experience. If the CEO of CoolStuffInc killed puppies and listened to Nickelback, that has no bearing on my experience with them as a customer. Therefore, it is inappropriate to discuss that in Discussing Retailers.
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Putts wrote:

A company's political or religious philosophies are not relevant to the shopping experience. If the CEO of CoolStuffInc killed puppies and listened to Nickelback, that has no bearing on my experience with them as a customer. Therefore, it is inappropriate to discuss that in Discussing Retailers.


This is a stunted and solipsistic expression of a financial transaction that pretends we exist in a vacuum, disentangled from culture and society.

You are accountable for where you spend your shopping dollars. It endorses the organization where you spend them. Look at how major corporations are finally comfortable endorsing GLBT rights because the culture has shifted. While ethically the counterpoint to my beliefs, the power of the Catholic League to boycott businesses is a clear demonstration of how where you shop creates the world you want to live in.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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And yes censorship is the wrong word.

Clearly I get a little hot under the collar. Reproductive rights affect everyone equally, but by and large men fail to realize this so it gets quickly dismissed as not important.
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apotheos wrote:
Putts wrote:

A company's political or religious philosophies are not relevant to the shopping experience. If the CEO of CoolStuffInc killed puppies and listened to Nickelback, that has no bearing on my experience with them as a customer. Therefore, it is inappropriate to discuss that in Discussing Retailers.


This is a stunted and solipsistic expression of a financial transaction that pretends we exist in a vacuum, disentangled from culture and society.

You are accountable for where you spend your shopping dollars. It endorses the organization where you spend them. Look at how major corporations are finally comfortable endorsing GLBT rights because the culture has shifted. While ethically the counterpoint to my beliefs, the power of the Catholic League to boycott businesses is a clear demonstration of how where you shop creates the world you want to live in.


And that's fine. You're free to shop at whatever retailer you like using whatever criteria you like. But don't claim that just because one company's political stance is relevant to you, it's relevant to everyone else.

The RSP forum exists because not everybody wants to discuss politics on this site. Political discussions often get heated, and eventually devolve into name-calling and finger pointing.

I'm not saying that you don't have a right to boycott Hobby Lobby. I'm not saying that you don't have a right to discuss Hobby Lobby. I'm saying that you should have that discussion in the appropriate place, as to make the BGG experience more enjoyable for everyone else.
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