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Subject: Ivory Edition - How Many Cards To Start With? rss

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paganeagle 2001
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Okay a very simple question.

I have 2 starter sets, Crab and Lion, so how many cards do I use at the start of a basic game (not advanced rules) for a single clan?

Nowhere in the rules does it say anything about the number of cards.

The reason I ask is, as I get more booster sets I can add to my cards.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG
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Duncan Idaho
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paganeagle2001 wrote:
Okay a very simple question.

I have 2 starter sets, Crab and Lion, so how many cards do I use at the start of a basic game (not advanced rules) for a single clan?

Nowhere in the rules does it say anything about the number of cards.

The reason I ask is, as I get more booster sets I can add to my cards.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG


40 cards in each deck.
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paganeagle 2001
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Thank you, Is that for 40 Dynasty and 40 Fate.

Sorry to ask such newbie questions, but the rules don't really explain that part.

Update:

When both packs are separated, there are 40 cards in each section.

So, I'm now assuming that I can use various booster cards to make my own style of deck as long as each section is 40 cards each.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG
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Jarek W
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It's 40/40 each minimum. You can run additional cards as long as there are only 3 copies of non-uniques and 1 of uniques in them. This situation is rare but sometimes useful.
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paganeagle 2001
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Again thank you. Why don't they put these things in nice easy terms in the Ivory Edition rules.

I'm used to various deck builders, but when they don't give you the basic info to start with... Lol.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG
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Chris Stevenson
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The deck construction rules are on pages 22-23 of the Advanced rules that come in the starter decks. Not that one would really know to look there, since it lacks a table of contents or index.
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David Boeren
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paganeagle2001 wrote:
So, I'm now assuming that I can use various booster cards to make my own style of deck as long as each section is 40 cards each.


Correct. Each deck should be 40 cards and the purpose of having more cards is to be able to tune and vary your deck - not to make the decks larger.

In the Advanced Rulebook p22 (in the section marked "Deck Building") it states that each deck must be at least 40 cards, so this is mentioned.

I'm not such a fan of how they decided to split the book this time but I understand what they're doing. In the past L5R has gotten a reputation of being hard to learn so they have sort of put a mini-tutorial into the Basic Rulebook which is what most of that book seems to be. Don't feel that the word "Basic" or "Advanced" really means anything, they're just two different books is all.
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paganeagle 2001
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Interesting, so to play the Basic game, you have to look in the Advanced rules to get the deck building rules. Lol.

Now, I don't write rules for games, but sense would tell me that you put in the deck building stuff in the first few paragraphs of the main Basic rules.

How they have it at the moment is like having the opening chapter of a book part way through it.

Very interesting concept.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG
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David Boeren
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I guess you can look at it however you want but personally I think you're stretching quite a bit there.

First, there is no such thing as the "Basic Game" and "Advanced Game". There's only one set of rules, not two. Also, you can play the game just fine without reading the deck building rules. That's why there's a whole deck already pre-made for you in the box.

Second, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that building your own deck is a topic for players who already know how to play the game which means that you must have already read the rest of the rules and played some games. It's not something you do as someone who's just cracked open your starter and has never played before, so I'm not sure why it would need to be on the first couple pages of the rulebook.

I've already mentioned too that the names of the books shouldn't be taken too literally.
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paganeagle 2001
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Knowing how many cards you have to start with is a main thing. Yes, you do get the basic set with each tin, but you also get boosters as well.

Now, I don't know anyone who would read the Advanced rules before reading the Basic ones as that wouldn't make sense.

Not hard to put in the first few paragraphs that it is a deck building game that you have to have a minimum of 40 cards in both your Dynasty and Fate decks.

There you are, just did it above, nice and easy, so that even newcomers like myself know exactly what is going on.

Not hard, just that those that wrote the two books forgot about the most important thing in a game, the humans playing it.

Give people the rules, in the right order and then they can get on with things.

Some of us have just got these things, we haven't been playing L5R for X amount of years.

I NEVER asked about building my own deck in the OP, I asked a quite easy question, how many cards do you start with.

I now know the answer, I can find the other info in the badly written manuals.

Great Uncle LROG
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Randy Shipp
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You're absolutely right that the "rulebooks" included with the game are terrible. They're fine as a sort of extended example of play, but they're miserable for figuring out the rules. A more traditionally formatted set of rules is in the works, I believe.
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Chris Stevenson
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The format of the rulebooks in the starter decks isn't amazing, but I get where they were coming from. The basic rules aren't really a rulebook so much as semi-guided playthrough. It doesn't include rules about deck construction because it's basically written to just include what you'll need for that first learning game where you're just playing with the fixed starter deck.

The Advanced Rules are a rulebook, but instead of a complete rulebook, it's a rulebook that doesn't repeat any of the rules that were already presented in the guided walkthrough.

I think that having a guided walkthrough is helpful, at least for some, and so I see why they wanted to have that. Ideally, however, this would just be marked as a walkthrough, and then there would just be a "Rules" that would include everything, rather than omitting stuff that was already covered in the walkthrough. That way once you get going you've just got one text that has everything. Not sure why they didn't do that, although I suppose space and printing costs may factor into it.
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David Boeren
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Daramere wrote:
Ideally, however, this would just be marked as a walkthrough, and then there would just be a "Rules" that would include everything, rather than omitting stuff that was already covered in the walkthrough. That way once you get going you've just got one text that has everything.


I agree, this would have been much better.

I'd gladly pay a reasonable amount to buy a good rulebook on larger sized paper that was well organized with an index and all that.
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Chris Miller
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As someone that recently started L5R with the Ivory Edition release I have to say that AEG's system of rules presentation is about a quarter brilliant and three quarters terrible. The programmed instruction of the box set was good to get moving but as someone that has played several LCGs/CCGs before I was looking for a wholesome rules to actually learn all of the game.

As far as I can tell the options are:
a) What comes with the box set, which is about 80% of the rules.
b) The two rulebooks that come with a faction starter, which together gives you most of the rules but in a really bad format that is hard to digest because it's fragmented.
c) The "big rules" from the L5R website, which appears to be meant for tournament play and is massive with a lot of sections that most people don't need.

Unfortunately it appears that the best way to learn this game is still have a knowledgeable player teach you. Not a great option for some people.
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Duncan Idaho
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I semi-knew how to play, and the rulebooks just confused me. The idea to create "achievements" was, in my opinion, a terrible one. You get no sense of how a turn should play out up front, which is almost mandatory, in my book.

I get wanting to separate the more advanced stuff (timing issues, keywords like Conqueror, etc...) from the basic ones so people can start playing. But when you do that, you have to leave enough in to at least give people a concept of the game that they're going to play.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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...and each starter really could have used a "How to Play This Deck" insert. Or at least a note on which win condition to aim for.
 
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David Boeren
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Do you know of any CCG or LCG that's ever done that? I can't think of any.
 
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Duncan Idaho
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dboeren wrote:
Do you know of any CCG or LCG that's ever done that? I can't think of any.


Magic does it in most of their starters; at least the ones I've purchased over the past 2 years.

At the same time, most other CCGs don't have 4 win Conditions, especially ones that often need to be pursued to the exclusion of others.

Thinking about it, the Game of Thrones house boxes have premades with strategy sheets for playing them.
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David Boeren
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OK, I've never played Magic so I didn't realize they had this. Mainly I've played all the LCGs and a variety of non-Magic CCGs.

Also, good point about the house boxes for Thrones. It's not quite a starter but they do have the sample deck lists with a brief overview.

I think all the Ivory starters are going to be going for a Military victory as their primary goal. Dragon is the only one that can even theoretically go for Enlightenment, as none of the others have all five Rings. Even so, the deck isn't really built around this - it's mainly Kensai and lots of weapons. I've got the Scorpion starter and it's not designed to generate enough Dishonor to win that way, neither is Spider. To accomplish this you have to have quite a bit of dishonor in the deck to overcome the proclaims and other gains the other player will have. Honor seems to be the next most common win condition after military, Lion or Crane might be able to achieve this. However, I think both are still probably better off going for military first. If you happen to win a big battle and collect a lot of honor that way then you might opt to try to finish the game on honor though.

I haven't seen all the starters in action yet, but the ones I have are:

Dragon: Lots of Kensai and weapons. You'll probably start with Ring of Air (or maybe Water) in play. Then you want to load up your guys with weapons and go busting provinces. Try to enhance the Conquerer guys, it'll help you keep more defense, and it's handy to get something that can straighten your Ring. Look to make a high-chi guy into a Duelist if you end up drawing some dueling cards.

Unicorn: What's seemed to work well for me is to concentrate on getting your cheap (5 gold) guys out early and try to put the cavalry followers on your cavalry guys (so as not to waste their ability). Look for ways to split your attacks so your opponent doesn't know where to defend, then move your guys to concentrate either where he has no defenders or where you can kill several of his guys.

I haven't played my Scorpion or Mantis yet but I can say a little:

Scorpion: Try to get at least one Courtier out to support your fighting guys, and look for opportunities to Dishonor enemies. Scorpion is a combined arms clan where the Samurai, Courtiers, and Magistrates work together and you'll take a lot more Limited/Open actions with this deck.

Mantis: Get rich and shoot them in the face. Mantis are aggressive and can usually kill something before the defenders can act so take out someone with a useful battle action before they can use it. You probably want to concentrate on one province at a time since Naval only works at one.

Of the rest...

Lion, Crab, and Spider should be fairly straightforward military decks I think.

Crane is probably a mix of honor and military, I haven't faced their deck yet. Phoenix I know the least about, I just don't have any real experience with them on either side at all. Spells? Or something? Hopefully someone else can fill in some notes with them.
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Chris Stevenson
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Both the Crane and Phoenix starter decks are primarily honor decks.
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Kris Van Beurden
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dboeren wrote:
Do you know of any CCG or LCG that's ever done that? I can't think of any.


Middle-earth with the Challenge Decks.
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Charles
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In the L5R Ivory Edition Basic Rulebook, on page 62, the rules clearly state: "Both your Dynasty and Fate decks must always have at least 40 cards each."

 
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