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Subject: Playing cards in a fight. How does the "chain" work? rss

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Brandon Alderman
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OK my question comes from how does card plays work during a fight? Does each the zombie player and the hero player take turns? Or is it whoever speaks up first? Which cards take precedence, the one most recent played or the one first played? See the example below for a fight that occurred this weekend during a game.

Example:

1. The Dice are rolled and the hero has won the fight "fending" off the zombie (no doubles were rolled).

2. The hero player played a card that allowed a zombie beaten in a fight even if no doubles were rolled to be killed and removed from the game.

3. The zombie player played a fight card allowing more dice to be rolled (No change to the outcome).

4. The hero had no card response.

5. The zombie player played a card (not a fight card) when there are more zombies in a space than heroes (which there were) zombies roll an extra fight dice and cannot be killed until the end of the turn.
The extra fight dice did not change the outcome and the hero still won the fight.

6. The hero had no card response.


What happens in this situation? Is the hero killing the zombie because it was already "killed" and removed before the zombie played its card of did the zombie prevent the kill and just lost the fight being "fended off"?

Thanks for the replies.
 
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Sergei Chavo
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I think, when fight is resolving (all players must done all of his fight and cards actions) the cards effects is starts at one time. In this situation Hero don't killed zombie, because second zombie card defends him.

P.S. Im new for this game, waiting for another players to answer.
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Ken H.
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Alderdust wrote:
1. The Dice are rolled and the hero has won the fight "fending" off the zombie (no doubles were rolled).

2. The hero player played a card that allowed a zombie beaten in a fight even if no doubles were rolled to be killed and removed from the game.


Get Back You Devils can only be played if the zombie has been "beaten". According to Jason, this means both players have to agree that they are done trying to modify the outcome of the fight.

See his posts here and here.

Quote:
3. The zombie player played a fight card allowing more dice to be rolled (No change to the outcome).


So this is not technically allowed per the above quotes.

However, in practice, the Hero player may occasionally slap down Get Back You Devils before asking the zombie player if he is finished. In that case, I would allow the zombie player to use his card, and the hero can take his card back into his hand.

The game is not supposed to be a race to see who can slap down their cards the fastest.

Quote:
5. The zombie player played a card (not a fight card) when there are more zombies in a space than heroes (which there were) zombies roll an extra fight dice and cannot be killed until the end of the turn.
The extra fight dice did not change the outcome and the hero still won the fight.


Hmm, not sure. What card is that? I thought it was Overwhelmed at first, but that doesn't add dice.

If a card prevents a zombie from dying, I would probably allow it to be played in response to Get Back you Devils. But you wouldn't be allowed to roll extra dice at that point. I guess if you want to use the card but not get the dice, it seems okay. I'm not sure this is right, though.
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Brandon Alderman
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Ken it may have been overwhelmed but either way the outcome remained the hero won the fight. Thanks for the response i know now that the fight has to of finished prior to playing Get back you devils.
 
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Sergei Chavo
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Rubric wrote:


Hmm, not sure. What card is that? I thought it was Overwhelmed at first, but that doesn't add dice.

If a card prevents a zombie from dying, I would probably allow it to be played in response to Get Back you Devils. But you wouldn't be allowed to roll extra dice at that point. I guess if you want to use the card but not get the dice, it seems okay. I'm not sure this is right, though.

Interesting. Why no extra fight dice in that point? I am readed the Overhewhelmed card and there is no rule about that. The card can be playing at any time.
 
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Lear Wolfe

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Get Back You Devils requires the fight to be resolved, if you were using the card in response to that there would be no dice roll to supplement.
 
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Ken H.
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Daimond wrote:
Rubric wrote:


Hmm, not sure. What card is that? I thought it was Overwhelmed at first, but that doesn't add dice.

If a card prevents a zombie from dying, I would probably allow it to be played in response to Get Back you Devils. But you wouldn't be allowed to roll extra dice at that point. I guess if you want to use the card but not get the dice, it seems okay. I'm not sure this is right, though.

Interesting. Why no extra fight dice in that point? I am readed the Overhewhelmed card and there is no rule about that. The card can be playing at any time.


I think Overwhelm CAN be played at that point (after Get Back You Devils). This is because Overwhelm does not actually add extra dice. If it did let you roll more dice, then it probably wouldn't be allowed because the fight has already resolved, as Lear said.

 
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Sergei Chavo
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I've got it, thx.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Rubric wrote:
[q="Daimond"][q="Rubric"]
...This is because Overwhelm does not actually add extra dice...


Overwhelmed DOES add extra fight dice: "...Every Zombie in that space rolls an extra Fight Dice...", so would not be allowed after it is decided that all players are done modifying the fight roll.


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Ken H.
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Carcking wrote:
Rubric wrote:
[q="Daimond"][q="Rubric"]
...This is because Overwhelm does not actually add extra dice...


Overwhelmed DOES add extra fight dice: "...Every Zombie in that space rolls an extra Fight Dice...", so would not be allowed after it is decided that all players are done modifying the fight roll.


*Sigh* Funny how you can read a card two or three times and just not see the words....

Well, now the question is can you play it after Get Back you Devils to get the "may not be killed" effect. I agree you would not get to roll extra dice at that point regardless.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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I would lean toward not over-complicating it. If the card is restricted because of timing for one aspect then apply it to all.

To go one further, I would reason that the effects of the card come into play after the "death" of this Zombie, being that I've already killed it. In other words it could not apply to this fight.

Besides it seems kind of low handed to drag all of those nice cards out of the Hero just to play a card that obliterates them all in the end. Not that Zombie players tend to do that or anything. devil


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Ken H.
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Carcking wrote:
I would lean toward not over-complicating it. If the card is restricted because of timing for one aspect then apply it to all.


Well, it's kind of a gray area for me. Overwhelmed has no timing restriction printed on the card. You should be able to play it at any time -- you just can't use the extra dice unless you choose to play it before the fight is resolved. You can still use the "may not be killed" effect.

This is unofficial, possibly wrong, and might be considered over-complicated, so your point is taken.

Quote:
To go one further, I would reason that the effects of the card come into play after the "death" of this Zombie, being that I've already killed it. In other words it could not apply to this fight.


I disagree here, because damage prevention abilities (like "That's Not Good") need to be playable after a zombie is about to be killed. So, to make the question more precise, it comes down to whether Overwhelmed counts as damage prevention.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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My thinking/meaning with the timing issue for Overwhelmed is that since it adds Fight Dice it should/(must?) be played before all parties agree to stop modifying the roll. It seems backward to play it after that decision and say "well, just ignore that added dice part - I just want the 'you can't kill Zombies' part".

That's Not Good is also played after the decision to stop modifying the Fight roll. It's decided that the Zombie is going to take a wound - then you get a chance to check it off.
 
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Brian Slattery
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I'd agree with Chuck. The damage prevention/weapon stripping cards etc are played in direct response to damage being taken/weapons being used, so the only logical timing for them is after that decision has been made.

For Overwhelmed, it is a two effect card, so I'd agree that both effects need to be used or none at all. Since the zombie didn't get the extra dice, they don't get the benefit of not being killed.

BTW - Does anyone else dislike the word "killed" being used for a zombie? Already dead...I prefer words like "destroyed."
 
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Ken H.
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BriBriSlat wrote:
I'd agree with Chuck. The damage prevention/weapon stripping cards etc are played in direct response to damage being taken/weapons being used, so the only logical timing for them is after that decision has been made.


So with that logic, you can never play Overwhelmed? You have to play it before resolution to get the dice, but you have to play it after resolution for the no-death effect.

Quote:
For Overwhelmed, it is a two effect card, so I'd agree that both effects need to be used or none at all. Since the zombie didn't get the extra dice, they don't get the benefit of not being killed.


The card affects all zombies in the space, so other zombies could still get the benefit of the extra dice in a future fight. Or, with cards like Unrelenting Attack the same zombie might be able to fight again.

Overwhelmed is not a Fight card, and has no timing restrictions. You could even play it on the hero's turn when they are about to set off an explosion. No fight is occurring, but you protect all your zombies in the space from being blown up.

Quote:
BTW - Does anyone else dislike the word "killed" being used for a zombie? Already dead...I prefer words like "destroyed."


Yeah, good point. It reminds of the debate over whether turning into a Zombie Hero counts as a hero death. Umm, yes, zombie = dead by definition....
 
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Chuck Hurd
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It just seems to me that since Overwhelmed has the ability to modify the fight roll, it should be played prior to the decision to stop modifying the roll. If it's played after that decision, and you try to apply it to that fight, you are essentially re-opening the fight resolution. In my mind at least, the Hero player would have the option to withdraw his Get Back You Devils card, to avoid the trap.
 
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Brian Slattery
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Rubric wrote:
BriBriSlat wrote:
I'd agree with Chuck. The damage prevention/weapon stripping cards etc are played in direct response to damage being taken/weapons being used, so the only logical timing for them is after that decision has been made.


Quote:
So with that logic, you can never play Overwhelmed? You have to play it before resolution to get the dice, but you have to play it after resolution for the no-death effect.


I think of it as something like "Rotten Bodies." You play it before fights start, it will add the extra dice and prevent the zombie deaths.

Quote:
For Overwhelmed, it is a two effect card, so I'd agree that both effects need to be used or none at all. Since the zombie didn't get the extra dice, they don't get the benefit of not being killed.


Quote:
The card affects all zombies in the space, so other zombies could still get the benefit of the extra dice in a future fight. Or, with cards like Unrelenting Attack the same zombie might be able to fight again.

Overwhelmed is not a Fight card, and has no timing restrictions. You could even play it on the hero's turn when they are about to set off an explosion. No fight is occurring, but you protect all your zombies in the space from being blown up.


Brings up an interesting question...Since it is NOT a fight card, are zombies even allowed to play it during a fight? Zombies are only allowed to play one fight card per fight, which could mean they cannot play any non-fight cards during a fight as well. If that makes sense

Thematically, it seems like a card you would play before the fight starts to "set the scene."

Quote:
BTW - Does anyone else dislike the word "killed" being used for a zombie? Already dead...I prefer words like "destroyed."


Yeah, good point. It reminds of the debate over whether turning into a Zombie Hero counts as a hero death. Umm, yes, zombie = dead by definition....
 
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Biodiesel
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Ken (Rubric) has it right. The Overwhelmed can be played, even if you don't really get to use the dice.

Zombies can play cards at any time, unless the card says otherwise, even during a fight. The only default restrictions are only one "Fight:" card allowed per fight, and "Sacrifice" cards must be played at the start of the turn. Overwhelmed could be played during the Move Zombies phase, if the player wanted to. Read it again:

Quote:

Overwhelmed:
Play on any space that has at least twice as many Zombies as Heroes. Every Zombie in that space rolls an extra Fight Dice and may not be Killed in any way until the end of the turn.


It clearly affects multiple fights and is in effect for the ENTIRE turn, even after the fights are over and resolved.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Sappington wrote:

...for the ENTIRE turn, even after the fights are over and resolved.

That would be granting the card way more power than it has.

IMO, here is the implication of the card and how it should be imterpreted: "...and may not be Killed in any way (from now) until the end of the turn."

So once the Hero plays Get Back You Devils (which is after both parties have decided to stop modifying the fight rolls) he has successfully Killed the Zombie. The Fight is resolved.

We can't grant the card the power to resurrect all the Zombies killed during the Fight Zombies phase of this turn...and why would we allow resurrection on this one fight and not all of them?

There is clearly a timing consideration with the Overwhelmed card.

 
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Biodiesel
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I'm not talking about resurrecting. How did you get that? I have no problem with allowing Git Back Ye Devils to do the kill. But once Overwhelmed is played it affects the whole turn, whatever is left of it.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Oh, yes. Definitely agree there. We're on the same page.


 
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Ken H.
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Sappington wrote:
I'm not talking about resurrecting. How did you get that? I have no problem with allowing Git Back Ye Devils to do the kill.


I think Chuck was talking about my post where I said Overwhelmed might (maybe, possibly) be intended to function as damage prevention, along the lines of "That's Not Good". Such cards are playable after and in response to a card (or roll) that kills a zombie.

This is the sequence: Hero wins a fight against a zombie. Hero player plays Get Back. Then Zombie player plays Overwhelmed.

What happens? I think all card plays are valid, and the zombie lives. No extra dice are rolled (unless there is another fight later in the turn).

I don't consider this to be "resurrecting" a zombie. Overwhelmed is played as a response (like a blue Magic card) to prevent the effect of Get Back you Devils.
 
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Biodiesel
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I agree, Rubric, that Overwhelmed trumps Git Back.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Well, you're ignoring the fact that I have already Killed that Zombie with Get Back. Present and past tense, removed from the board. Why extrapolate that Overwhelmed can just discount Get Back?

If Overwhelmed is played any time after Get Back it would have to apply from now until the end of the turn. Since it is not Fight specific as in That's Not Good, it is generalized and cannot reverse the effects of this Fight. That is to say, there is nothing about the card that would indicate it could reverse the outcome of a Fight already settled. It doesn't say "including this Fight" or anything like that. And if it can reverse this Fight, then why not all of the Fights that have already occurred this turn in that space?

It follows also that the Zombie just Killed, and those prior, cannot be included in the count to determine if there are twice as many Zombies as Heroes.
 
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Ken H.
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Carcking wrote:
Well, you're ignoring the fact that I have already Killed that Zombie with Get Back. Present and past tense, removed from the board.


I'm not ignoring it -- I'm disputing it.

You haven't killed the zombie until both players agree that your action has succeeded. Your opponent is allowed to use his cards to cancel or prevent your actions.

Quote:
If Overwhelmed is played any time after Get Back it would have to apply from now until the end of the turn. Since it is not Fight specific as in That's Not Good, it is generalized and cannot reverse the effects of this Fight. That is to say, there is nothing about the card that would indicate it could reverse the outcome of a Fight already settled.


I think the order is that you settle the outcome of the fight first (who won, who lost). Then as a separate process, you settle whether wounds and deaths actually happen or if they are prevented. When you are settling the wounds part, you can't go back to affect the win or lose part.

Overwhelmed is not a Fight card, and neither is That's not Good. They are the same.

The question is whether Overwhelmed can be played as damage prevention. I'm still not sure on this point -- you may be right. "That's not Good" is clearly a damage prevention card, and even uses the word "prevent".

A point in your favor: Overwhelmed does not use the word "prevent".

However, it clearly does say the zombie cannot be killed. And it has no timing restrictions printed on it. And, the zombie was NOT instantly killed because the game system allows a window of opportunity for cards to prevent the death. Case in point: That's not Good.

Quote:
And if it can reverse this Fight, then why not all of the Fights that have already occurred this turn in that space?


It's not reversing the fight. It's preventing a wound. The hero still won the fight and is not wounded.

Of course, it CAN reverse a current fight by adding extra dice. But that has to be done before the outcome of the fight (winner/loser) is finalized.

Quote:
It follows also that the Zombie just Killed, and those prior, cannot be included in the count to determine if there are twice as many Zombies as Heroes.


If the zombie was killed in a previous fight, and the death was not prevented or cancelled, then Overwhelmed obviously cannot restore that zombie, and neither can any other damage prevention card. Nobody is claiming that.

The "twice as many" requirement has to be true at the instant the card is played. In my opinion, you can count the zombie that has been targetted with "Get Back", because the death has not happened yet. It's slated to occur unless prevented.


Sorry for the too-long post. The tl;dr version is: there is a special timing phase for preventing wounds. The question is whether a card with no timing restrictions can be played to hit that special phase, even though it doesn't contain the word "prevent". I think the answer is yes, but I can see good arguments either way.

Unfortunately, FFP rarely answers rules questions anymore, so we're kind of on our own with this one.
 
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