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Subject: primary ability / alliance ability rss

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Jamie
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I think I understand this correctly but I thought I would just get clarification. The rules state, "with the exception of a ship's primary ability (which triggers immediately as the ship is played), players may use the various abilities of their in-play ships and bases at any time during their main phase."

If I understand correctly if someone had played a blob destroyer (6 attack primary ability and destroy target base and/or scrap a card in the trade row alliance ability) and a blob fighter (3 attack primary ability and draw a card alliance ability) their combined 9 attack must first attack any outposts their opponent has or their opponent's influence. Then after their primary abilities are resolved the blob destroyer could destroy an opponent base. Is this correct?

The reason for the confusion the rules say the resources, either combat or trade, are pooled and can be used at any point. Do the resources of the primary abilities need to be spent first then any other abilities you are able to trigger afterwards are pooled separately and spent separately?

Thanks
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Peter Rabinowitz
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jme198 wrote:
...their combined 9 attack must first attack any outposts their opponent has or their opponent's influence. Then after their primary abilities are resolved the blob destroyer could destroy an opponent base. Is this correct?

The way I understand it, first you get 9 added to your combat pool. Then you get the ability to destroy a base. Once that pesky outpost is destroyed, thanks to the secondary ability, you are free to apply your 9 combat pool wherever you wish.

Quote:
resources, either combat or trade, are pooled and can be used at any point.

Yep.

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Do the resources of the primary abilities need to be spent first then any other abilities you are able to trigger afterwards are pooled separately and spent separately?

"Pooled and used at any point" means it can be pooled and used at any point.

To put it simply, there are almost no timing issues in this game. The only one I've found is when you trash from your hand - in that case you would not also get the effects of the trashed cards.
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Jon Ben
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A ship with 5-combat as a primary ability adds that value to your Combat pool when played. THAT is the primary ability. When to use your Combat pool is completely up to your discretion. Even if that ship is scraped you still have that combat in your pool.
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Steve
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So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."
 
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Michael Weber
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stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."


The rules state in column 3 that primaries trigger immediately, while secondaries MAY be used at any time. Be aware though that the wording on the secondaries IS inconsitent in this regard (stated in another thread here on BGG)
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Jon Ben
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MrTetsuo wrote:
Ally abilities will fallow regular rules, i.e. they need another card of the same faction to be played before the player can choose to use it.


Yes, but the wording is important. The ally ability can be triggered at any point on your turn if you have another card in play with a matching faction icon.
Your wording seems to imply the card with the matching icon needs to be played on the same turn, and also has to be played before the card with the ally ability. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but since this is the rules forums I thought I would clarify.
 
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Jamie
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Mixo wrote:
stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."


The rules state in column 3 that primaries trigger immediately, while secondaries MAY be used at any time. Be aware though that the wording on the secondaries IS inconsitent in this regard (stated in another thread here on BGG)


This makes me feel like they made a mistake when writing the rules. To me the Machine Base should always trigger when in play.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?


Yes.
 
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Jamie
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kc2dpt wrote:
stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?


Yes.


To be clear:

No primary ship abilities are not optional, all other abilities are.
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Peter Rabinowitz
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MrTetsuo wrote:
All ships primary abilities are not optional, they always trigger.

All bases abilities are optional and they only trigger if the player wants. Ally abilities will fallow regular rules, i.e. they need another card of the same faction to be played before the player can choose to use it.


Mixo wrote:
The rules state in column 3 that primaries trigger immediately, while secondaries MAY be used at any time. Be aware though that the wording on the secondaries IS inconsitent in this regard (stated in another thread here on BGG)


jme198 wrote:
To be clear:

No primary ship abilities are not optional, all other abilities are.


The rules are somewhat ambiguous in the wording; they do not ever say explicitly whether abilities are optional or mandatory. Here's what they say:

Quote:
With the exception of a ship's primary ability (which triggers immediately as the ship is played), players may use the various abilities of their in-play ships and bases at any time during their main phase.


I can see how someone might interpret "triggers immediately" as implying "mandatory" but it seems to me if you take it in the context of the full sentence then it is clear it is discussing timing. In other words, you can chose to trigger abilities at any point in the main phase, except for ship primary abilities which you can only chose to trigger as the ship is played.

I'm not sure why there is this restriction on ship primary abilities, though. Looking through the cards, I don't see any case in which the timing of a ship's primary ability affects gameplay. It seems to me it would've been simpler to just say "any ability can be used at any time during the main phase."

As for whether abilities are optional or mandatory, again I don't see any ability where it would matter. The only ship primary abilities I found that don't explicitly say "may" are "draw a card" and "target opponent discards a card" and in both cases I cannot think of a situation where making these abilities optional would have any effect on gameplay. Again, it would have simpler to just explicitly say in the rules "all abilities are optional."

If someone could show me an example of a ship's primary ability in which it matters a] that it is mandatory and/or b] that it's timing matters then I would gratefully stand corrected.

P.S. In any mention of timing I feel compelled to note that for abilities which state "scrap from your hand" you must scrap said card before you play it from your hand. Excepting for this lone case, you could simply play your whole hand at once and resolves all the abilities in any order you wish with no effect on gameplay.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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OK, I found one ship in which interpreting it's primary ability as mandatory or optional affects gameplay. Megahauler says, "Acquire any ship without paying its cost". If we are late game and all the ships in the trade row are much less powerful than what I've already got in my deck, or if they are all off-faction to my deck, then being forced to acquire one of these ships would dilute my deck. Do we really think that was the intent? Do we really think this 7-cost ship is the only card in the whole game which has a negative affect on it's owner?

I stand by my assertion that all abilities in the game are optional. The "triggers immediately phrase" refers to timing, not to it being mandatory.
 
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Henry Allen
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I read the rules to mean that primaries are not optional though many of them say 'you may' or simply add to your combat and/or trade pool which makes them 'effectively optional' I suppose.

In response to your question about how does timing matter ...

When I have one of the deck stacking abilities, I almost always want to play that prior to playing a card draw ability. For example, 'Draw a card' is much more fun to trigger AFTER 'You may put the next ship you purchase on top of your deck' and I have just purchased a massive ship that itself lets you draw more cards.

I also want to scrap from my discard pile before card draws that would make me reshuffle.

I may want to use a 'discard up to two cards and draw that many' prior to a scrap ability (to get cards in my discard that I want to scrap).

As far as how any of this matters, assuming primaries are non-optional, sometimes the 'tricks' above can't work out. For example, the ability you want to trigger first is an ally ability but the only ally available has the primary ability that you were hoping to trigger second.
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Jon Ben
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stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."


These abilities are not inconsistent. One is a ship primary ability and makes it clear that the scrapping is optional (You MAY...). The other is a base ability, which you MAY choose to use during your main phase. If you want the card draw from the base you MUST then scrap a card. There is no inconsistency here, they are simply different abilities.

Remember the Supply Bot also gives you 2-trade. So your description of that ability is incomplete. Even if ship primaries are optional the wording allows you to get the trade but not do the scrapping.
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Peter Rabinowitz
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KlydeFrog wrote:
As far as how any of this matters, assuming primaries are non-optional, sometimes the 'tricks' above can't work out. For example, the ability you want to trigger first is an ally ability but the only ally available has the primary ability that you were hoping to trigger second.


I see. That is a good point. I don't know if making the game more restrictive in this way makes it a better game overall, though. I think it would be so much simpler to just explicitly state "all abilities are optional and may be activated at any time during the main phase."

Hmm... now I really wonder what the designers intended here.
 
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Steve
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JonBen wrote:
stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."


These abilities are not inconsistent. One is a ship primary ability and makes it clear that the scrapping is optional (You MAY...). The other is a base ability, which you MAY choose to use during your main phase. If you want the card draw from the base you MUST then scrap a card. There is no inconsistency here, they are simply different abilities.

Remember the Supply Bot also gives you 2-trade. So your description of that ability is incomplete. Even if ship primaries are optional the wording allows you to get the trade but not do the scrapping.


Yes, I know all of that. As for the inconsistency I was just using that base as an example. I wasn't referring to the difference in abilities I was referring to the word "may" in one and not the other. If all abilities were optional then that would be inconsistent. If, as we suspect, the abilities on ships are mandatory and those on bases are optional then, no, of course they're not inconsistent.

The wording on Central Office is, however, different than that of other bases. Besides the 2 trade it reads, "You may put the next ship you acquire this turn on top of your deck." If base abilities are always optional the word "may" is not consistent with the wording on other bases which, like Junkyard, say things like "Scrap a card in your hand or discard pile."

Regardless, I'm going with the BGG consensus unless I hear otherwise from the designers.
 
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Jon Ben
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stevepop wrote:
JonBen wrote:
stevepop wrote:
So all abilities are optional? If so why the difference in wording on these two cards? Just inconsistency?

Supply Bot - "You may scrap a card in your hand or discard pile"

Machine Base - "Draw a card. Then scrap a card from your hand."


These abilities are not inconsistent. One is a ship primary ability and makes it clear that the scrapping is optional (You MAY...). The other is a base ability, which you MAY choose to use during your main phase. If you want the card draw from the base you MUST then scrap a card. There is no inconsistency here, they are simply different abilities.

Remember the Supply Bot also gives you 2-trade. So your description of that ability is incomplete. Even if ship primaries are optional the wording allows you to get the trade but not do the scrapping.


Yes, I know all of that. As for the inconsistency I was just using that base as an example. I wasn't referring to the difference in abilities I was referring to the word "may" in one and not the other. If all abilities were optional then that would be inconsistent. If, as we suspect, the abilities on ships are mandatory and those on bases are optional then, no, of course they're not inconsistent.


Even in the case that all abilities are optional they are not inconsistent. Perhaps there are cases that show what you mean but the one you offered does not. The lack of the word may on the base is because you must discard if you decide to use the ability. Just like you must increase your trade value by 2 if you use the bot's ability, and you must draw a card if you use the ally ability of Trade Escort.

Quote:
The wording on Central Office is, however, different than that of other bases. Besides the 2 trade it reads, "You may put the next ship you acquire this turn on top of your deck." If base abilities are always optional the word "may" is not consistent with the wording on other bases which, like Junkyard, say things like "Scrap a card in your hand or discard pile."


They use the word may on Central Office because you might want the 2 trade but you might not want to put the card on top of your deck. The rules are clear that using the ability is optional but if the ability offers more than one thing they need to exempt you explicitly or else you must do all of them (see Machine Base).
 
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Henry Allen
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Central Office uses 'may' in order to let you use half the ability without forcing you to use the other half.
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Vito Gesualdi
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Hey guys, Vito from White Wizard with some rule clarifications.

1) It is not optional to use a ship's primary ability as it enters play. Once a ship is played, you must perform any actions the primary ability states. Only if there is a "you may" clause, may you choose to ignore a part of the ability.

So:

- Supply Bot: You must add the 2 Combat to your pool, but you can choose to not scrap a card.
- Megahauler: You must add the 5 Authority to your authority total AND you must acquire a ship from the trade row (if one is available).

The main reason for this is to help streamline the game (as otherwise, both players would have to keep close track of which cards have and have not used their primary abilities each turn).

2) All other abilities are optional, and can be used at any point during the turn. However, you still cannot ignore part of the ability unless there is a "you may" clause.

So:

- Machine Base: You may choose not to activate the primary ability, but once activated you must both draw a card AND scrap a card.
- Central Office: You may choose not to activate the primary ability, but once activated you must add 2 Trade to your trade pool. You can choose to not put the next ship you buy on top of the deck because of the "you may" clause.

3) Because of how ship primary abilities trigger, timing does often matter. Some examples:

-If there isn't a good target for Megahauler, first try purchasing a low cost ship to see if something better comes up.

-If you don't yet have a card to scrap in your discard pile, activate Recycling Station before playing Supply Bot.

-Wait to play Survey Ship after Central Office puts a giant ship on top of your deck, so you can draw into it on the same turn.

I hope these examples give you guys some clarification on ability timing, and the "you may" clauses. Please post if you need further clarification on this, or any specific card abilities.

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VitoGesualdi wrote:
Hey guys, Vito from White Wizard with some rule clarifications.

1) It is not optional to use a ship's primary ability as it enters play. Once a ship is played, you must perform any actions the primary ability states. Only if there is a "you may" clause, may you choose to ignore a part of the ability.

So:

- Supply Bot: You must add the 2 Combat to your pool, but you can choose to not scrap a card.
- Megahauler: You must add the 5 Authority to your authority total AND you must acquire a ship from the trade row (if one is available).

The main reason for this is to help streamline the game (as otherwise, both players would have to keep close track of which cards have and have not used their primary abilities each turn).

2) All other abilities are optional, and can be used at any point during the turn. However, you still cannot ignore part of the ability unless there is a "you may" clause.

So:

- Machine Base: You may choose not to activate the primary ability, but once activated you must both draw a card AND scrap a card.
- Central Office: You may choose not to activate the primary ability, but once activated you must add 2 Trade to your trade pool. You can choose to not put the next ship you buy on top of the deck because of the "you may" clause.

3) Because of how ship primary abilities trigger, timing does often matter. Some examples:

-If there isn't a good target for Megahauler, first try purchasing a low cost ship to see if something better comes up.

-If you don't yet have a card to scrap in your discard pile, activate Recycling Station before playing Supply Bot.

-Wait to play Survey Ship after Central Office puts a giant ship on top of your deck, so you can draw into it on the same turn.

I hope these examples give you guys some clarification on ability timing, and the "you may" clauses. Please post if you need further clarification on this, or any specific card abilities.



so if i have 1 gold draw a card ship, i must draw the card the moment i play it when if i want to use the gold
 
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John
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You must draw a card as soon as you play out even if you don't want to use the trade. Of course to can just discard it at the end of your turn if you wish.
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Ben Gartner
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Grimstringer wrote:

so if i have 1 gold draw a card ship, i must draw the card the moment i play it when if i want to use the gold


Yes - you can't play Survey Ship, spend the one gold from Survey Ship, and then draw a card - you have to draw the card first before you can take any other game actions.
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