Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Myth» Forums » General

Subject: Should loitering rule be changed? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
randall fischer

Warren
Michigan
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
except only one person out of the entire group has to play an action during the hero cycle...so a bad hand excuse doesnt really fly unless you are playing solo or the entire team gets a bad draw (which is very unlikely).

This doesnt invalidate your point about it being lame if the map is empty. I agree on that point.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't like the Loitering rules either. There is a thread where a few people have been discussing alternatives:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1146045/alternative-to-loite...

I'm not too concerned about Intentional Loitering in our group, so we use the following:
- When the Tile is cleared, Heroes have unlimited movement, but the Hero Deck Phase* is skipped until the next Tile.**
- If the group is unable to use AP (due to the shuffle or board position), then alternatively every Hero can place 2 cards face down from their draw pile into their Action Spaces in order to advance the AP two spaces cumulatively.***

I'm trying to decide whether I need to adopt the following rule as well, but I'm not sure if I need it:
- AP induced by Traps prevents Loitering penalties.

* The Hero Deck Phase includes discard, hand draw, and Threat reduction.
** Essentially, you can't shuffle through your deck after you clear a tile. Also, Threat isn't reduced until you move on.
*** This minimizes the potential beneficial side effects when being forced to Loiter: Reduced Threat, minimal AP advancement, and hand optimization.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JimbobJones wrote:

First, if there are no lairs active on the map (note I'm saying "map" -- that includes all tiles out at the moment), there's no such thing as loitering. If the main goal of this rule is to prevent farming, why punish people when there's nothing to farm? This will take care of 80% of the problem.

It's not just farming. It's also in place to prevent people from cycling through their decks to optimize their hands.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ChaplainCassius wrote:
except only one person out of the entire group has to play an action during the hero cycle...so a bad hand excuse doesnt really fly unless you are playing solo or the entire team gets a bad draw (which is very unlikely).

This doesnt invalidate your point about it being lame if the map is empty. I agree on that point.

This happened on our very first turn of our very first game, and then it happened again on right after we entered our second tile. Our biggest issue is having AP inducing attack cards but not being in range to be able to attack.

It also sucks if everyone gets knocked prone.

Oh, our games are typically 2p which will make a big difference.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Ry
United States
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ChaplainCassius wrote:
except only one person out of the entire group has to play an action during the hero cycle...so a bad hand excuse doesnt really fly unless you are playing solo or the entire team gets a bad draw (which is very unlikely).

This doesnt invalidate your point about it being lame if the map is empty. I agree on that point.


I don't have the book in front of me, but I want to say it was one AP per player, not just one AP.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ropya wrote:
ChaplainCassius wrote:
except only one person out of the entire group has to play an action during the hero cycle...so a bad hand excuse doesnt really fly unless you are playing solo or the entire team gets a bad draw (which is very unlikely).

This doesnt invalidate your point about it being lame if the map is empty. I agree on that point.


I don't have the book in front of me, but I want to say it was one AP per player, not just one AP.
No. That's a common point of confusion, but it's one AP total.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rolfe Bergstrom
msg tools
mbmbmb
I'll agree the loitering rule is really lame when it penalizes PCs for a bad draw, or for getting knocked over by a trap.

However, it's just as lame if the acolyte takes 4 or 5 turns to heal everyone and the archer maxes out their ammo at the end of every tile.

Any alternate rule needs to prevent not only lair farming, but also slow-paced hand-optimizing and infinite-healing gimmicks.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cozzolino
United States
Lebanon
Virginia
flag msg tools
Trap tiles without enemies shouldn't have a loitering rule unless its AP is based on MP. In that case loitering should only take effect if you don't move.
If the trap activates in the refresh who cares about AP. In that case just skip the deck phase and just use MP to move and disarm. That way you don't cycle your deck for the card to help with traps.
For non trap tiles I don't think its an issue. If no one has a card to play that raises AP, you could house rule in if you don't play a card you can gain 1 MP that costs an AP. Or you could say if all players refuse the deck phase then there is no loitering penalty.
As far as everyone going prone, while that sucks, that's also the darkness bitch smacking you. But you could also play the same deck phase option above to avoid this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
vazzucious wrote:
Trap tiles without enemies shouldn't have a loitering rule unless its AP is based on MP. In that case loitering should only take effect if you don't move.
If the trap activates in the refresh who cares about AP. In that case just skip the deck phase and just use MP to move and disarm. That way you don't cycle your deck for the card to help with traps.

I honestly don't think the traps were necessarily designed to always be cleared, and that's why I don't know that I'm going to adjust the Traps/Loitering issue. Darkness Falls and the Pit Trap are just ridiculously tough for low player counts...
vazzucious wrote:
For non trap tiles I don't think its an issue. If no one has a card to play that raises AP, you could house rule in if you don't play a card you can gain 1 MP that costs an AP. Or you could say if all players refuse the deck phase then there is no loitering penalty.

The side effect with that is that everyone's Threat will be reduced significantly.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Steward
Canada
flag msg tools
I get what loitering is trying to do but there is too much "collateral damage".

And in 4-5 player game, the loitering system even as it is isnt really going to stop an acolyte from healing everyone or an archer stocking up anyway.

Here are my plans.

Loitering is abolished.
-If the darkness track did not increase during the hero cycle, the darkness track moves up 1 in the Refresh Phase (in addition to AP from monster types)
-Once a tile is cleared, players MUST move towards the new tile with max MP if not adjacent to it & must move into the new tile if all players are adjacent or in the new tile. Teleporting players works too but i dont like it as much because of the dynamics of the hero deck.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Erik Webb
United States
Edmonds
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Deadwolf wrote:
I get what loitering is trying to do but there is too much "collateral damage".

And in 4-5 player game, the loitering system even as it is isnt really going to stop an acolyte from healing everyone or an archer stocking up anyway.

Here are my plans.

Loitering is abolished.
-If the darkness track did not increase during the hero cycle, the darkness track moves up 1 in the Refresh Phase (in addition to AP from monster types)
-Once a tile is cleared, players MUST move towards the new tile if not adjacent to it & must move into the new tile if all players are adjacent or in the new tile. Teleporting players works too but i dont like it as much because of the dynamics of the hero deck.


This may work, but you would also need to clarify how much MP must be used. Otherwise players can still game the system by killing an enemy at one edge of a 12x12 and slowly move towards the new tile, getting 12 cycles to refresh their deck etc....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy Steward
Canada
flag msg tools
The idea was players move with max MP towards tile edge. players don't have to enter new tile until all players are at the tile edge. And failure to do so would result in -1 treasure in remaining tiles.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cozzolino
United States
Lebanon
Virginia
flag msg tools
mfaulk80 wrote:
vazzucious wrote:
Trap tiles without enemies shouldn't have a loitering rule unless its AP is based on MP. In that case loitering should only take effect if you don't move.
If the trap activates in the refresh who cares about AP. In that case just skip the deck phase and just use MP to move and disarm. That way you don't cycle your deck for the card to help with traps.

I honestly don't think the traps were necessarily designed to always be cleared, and that's why I don't know that I'm going to adjust the Traps/Loitering issue. Darkness Falls and the Pit Trap are just ridiculously tough for low player counts...
vazzucious wrote:
For non trap tiles I don't think its an issue. If no one has a card to play that raises AP, you could house rule in if you don't play a card you can gain 1 MP that costs an AP. Or you could say if all players refuse the deck phase then there is no loitering penalty.

The side effect with that is that everyone's Threat will be reduced significantly.

Well Im assuming this is when you enter a tile, and unable to get close enough to even activate an enemy. So threat would probably be 0, having cleared the last tile. You could also skip threat reduction because that's kinda part of the deck phase when you are discarding whats on your board. Since you skipped that phase you should skip threat reduction too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mathue Faulkner
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
vazzucious wrote:

Well Im assuming this is when you enter a tile, and unable to get close enough to even activate an enemy. So threat would probably be 0, having cleared the last tile.

It just so happens that the second time we were hit with loitering, there was a Hunting Pack on one side of the map that the Acolyte took out, but we couldn't get to the main Lair for a turn or two. I don't think it's typical, but my view is a bit skewed by that...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Cozzolino
United States
Lebanon
Virginia
flag msg tools
mfaulk80 wrote:
vazzucious wrote:

Well Im assuming this is when you enter a tile, and unable to get close enough to even activate an enemy. So threat would probably be 0, having cleared the last tile.

It just so happens that the second time we were hit with loitering, there was a Hunting Pack on one side of the map that the Acolyte took out, but we couldn't get to the main Lair for a turn or two. I don't think it's typical, but my view is a bit skewed by that...

Yeah it makes sense. I haven't played a lot. Focusing on painting so I'm sure my thoughts on it will change the more I play.
I don't think the game is designed to make you discard 3 hands of cards and waste those turns moving. If you skip cycling the deck and resetting the threat, while raising the AP each time you skip this phase, I think it will balance out. If you trigger the AP doing this with no active enemies then you should get a loitering penalty.
this could also be fixed if you house rule you can play a card face down as a hustle only when you will be forced to take a loitering penalty.
It really comes down to is the game punishing you because you did something or due to something out of your control(not counting prone).
As long as you aren't cycling the deck for the perfect hand, then I would house rule in what feels best.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Von Chicken Pants
msg tools
There's loitering on active tiles; and loitering on cleared tiles. They have separate concerns/abuses. One rule for both cases is difficult.

I would consider: "Darkness must go up by at least 2 AP per Hero Cycle on a tile with active monsters" (+2AP and -1 treasure penalty) or "You have two turns to populate a new tile after clearing an old one" (once/tile: -1 treasure/tile for the act) or "two turns to active monsters on a tile with monster which has never had an active monster group" (once/tile: -1 treasure/tile for the act)

Unfortunately I hate rules growth.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.