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Descent: Journeys in the Dark» Forums » Rules

Subject: OL surge-threat gain rss

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duhtch
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Kartigan and I have been talking about the use of surges for heroes and the OL. The main issue is between steps 5 and 6 of the attack sequence (pg 10 Descent Rulebook).

Quote:
Step 5 Using Power Surges (Heroes): Many of the dice have power surges on them. A hero player may use his rolled power surges to trigger a variety of special effects, depending on the weapon used. A weapon’s item card always lists the effects that a hero may trigger with power
surges when attacking with that weapon. A hero may trigger a specific effect more than once for a single attack, as long as he rolled enough power surges to do so. Note that there are some effects that will provide no additional benefit if they are triggered more than once. Any power surges that a hero does not immediately use to trigger effects are lost they cannot be “saved” for a later attack.

Example: When a hero attacks with the Mace of Kellos, he may use his rolled power surges to trigger two different effects. The weapon’s item card reads, “: +1 Damage” and “: This attack gains Knockback.” This means that a hero player can use two power surges to either increase the attack’s damage by 1 or give the attack the Knockback ability. If the hero player rolled four power surges, he could use them to give the attack +1 damage and Knockback, or he could use them to simply grant the attack +2 damage. No additional benefit would be gained from giving the attack the Knockback ability more than once.

Using Power Surges (Overlord): For every two surges the overlord player rolls during an attack, he gains one threat token. Any unused surges are lost. Using Fatigue (Heroes Only): After the dice have been
rolled for an attack, hero players may also spend one or more fatigue tokens to add additional power dice to the roll. However, an attacker may never roll more than five total power dice for a single attack. See “Spending Fatigue for Attacks,” page 18, for further information.


Quote:
Step 6 is when you inflict wounds.

If, after step 5 is resolved, the attack hits, the attacking player counts the total number of damage (“blood drop” icons) showing on the rolled dice and adds any bonus damage from power surges, power enhancements, or weapon abilities. This is the total damage dealt to the
figure in the target space. In order for this damage to have any effect, it must first penetrate the figure’s armor.


Both Kartigan and I have been playing that you get the benefit of surges after wounds have been dealt. For example, if you use 2 surges for Gauntlets of Power, you get it after wounds, not before, else you would be able to use the surges to gain a fatigue, then use that fatigue to attack for more.

Or on the OL side, if you are involved in a LT fight, the monster attacks and rolls 4 surges, can they convert that into 2 threat, then use that 2 threat to roll another power dice?

We both know that RtL came out after vanilla descent, so the original rulebook might not be the best source for the attack sequence so I went to the FAQ. Did a control+F for surge and couldn't find anything to corroborate how we were originally playing. The best thing that I could find was FAQ pg 11

Quote:
Attack
Q: Under what circumstances can the overlord receive threat for rolling surges on an attack roll?
A: The overlord may spend two surges on each attack roll to gain one threat. He may do this on any attack that hits a hero.

Q: Can surges used to gain threat also be used to activate abilities? For example, if the overlord rolls three surges and has the option to use one surge for +1 Damage, can the overlord gain one threat and +3 Damage or only one threat and +1 Damage?
A: No, the overlord spends the two surges to gain one threat, so he cannot use it for both things. With the Dark Prayer ability, he spends one surge to gain one threat, +1 Range, and +1 Damage.


Neither of these addresses our question.

Our question is when specifically can you use surges? In my above example, can I use 2 surges to gain 1 fatigue with the Gauntlets of Power, then use that fatigue to add to the dice roll? Can the OL in a LT encounter use surges from a single attack to gain threat, then choose to use that threat to add dice to the same attack?

If yes, we have both been playing this wrong. If no, can you please show us the source?
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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my laptop is down so can't play my turns or use references etc, but its easy to answer.
No, of course not. By the time you get to spend surges you are already well past the time for rolling dice, even rerolls or added dice. Step 5 is already after the earlier steps where dice can be rolled or added.
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duhtch
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yes, but in step 5, it says you can spend surges and use fatigue again.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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duhtch wrote:
yes, but in step 5, it says you can spend surges and use fatigue again.


I don't think thats part of step 5, even if it has been placed there by accident. Note that its not spending surges which is already covered in two subsections.
You can't possibly spend surges until after the roll has been completed, including any rerolls, because those surges might not actually be there. And you can't add dice after a reroll.
The sequence must be:
i) roll dice
ii) add dice
iii) reroll opportunity
iv) dice roll is now complete. Only now do the dice faces actually count for anything. No surges exist until here
v) spend surges

ii) must be before iii), by rules. v) cannot be before iv) because the surges don't exist until then. iv) comes after iii) by definition, therefore v) cannot come before ii)
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Shawn Burk
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I've always played and assumed the same thing as Corbon here, and I hate to use rules that feel pretty outdated but I think Joel has an ambiguity here worth talking about.

If the total actions-to-complete in step 5 is gaining threat and adding upgrades, and there is no order to what must be done first, then it does look like an attack can fuel itself to getting stronger, because only at the very end when the surge expenditure is finalized are wounds counted up and the attack is finished. From the OL side, it doesn't look like you could do the hero version of it (upgrade) and then take the OL version (threat) and then jump back to the hero version in the list. Its like rereading a parapraph and having the last sentence tell you to redo the first sentence, but then stop there and just to the next paragraph. Does not compute, at least to me.

I double checked the wording of the RtL rules for the OL ability, and it says: "Add a black power die to a monster’s attack roll, or upgrade a power die by one step (like a hero spending a fatigue on an attack)."

I really don't appreciate the term "like" there, as it doesn't seem to show it is exactly the same, but just similar to. Still, that's not a lot to go on.

I'm going to bow out on the discussion for the most part, but I just don't feel having an attack feedback on itself to strengthen further is a good idea.

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