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Subject: Dodge attack rss

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George Leoniak
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A few cards allow an attack to be dodged.

Are thes played before the enemey attack dice are rolled and rolling one less die?

Or

After the results are seen, and selecting a hit to be canceled?
 
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George Leoniak
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Okay, found it. The interrupt must be played before the enemy attack, so do not role die for that enemy.
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Jarad Bond
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Tracker1 wrote:
Okay, found it. The interrupt must be played before the enemy attack, so do not role die for that enemy.

Where did you find this reference, just so we can use it? Some interrupts need the hero to actually be hit (thinking brigand), some are dodges, some are only if you've been targetted (soldier blade dance). I assume you're talking about specific cards?
 
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George Leoniak
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logris wrote:
Tracker1 wrote:
Okay, found it. The interrupt must be played before the enemy attack, so do not role die for that enemy.

Where did you find this reference, just so we can use it? Some interrupts need the hero to actually be hit (thinking brigand), some are dodges, some are only if you've been targetted (soldier blade dance). I assume you're talking about specific cards?


Rulebook pg. 39 retaliation box at the bottom.

"If the interrupt card allows the hero to move away from an attacker or neutralize an enemy attack, it must be played before the enemy attack."

I am sure I read that before, but a one line sentence in a 60 pg. rulebook is tough to remember after the first read through.
 
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Jarad Bond
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Thanks! That is very helpful.
 
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Remi Bureau
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Tracker1 wrote:
logris wrote:
Tracker1 wrote:
Okay, found it. The interrupt must be played before the enemy attack, so do not role die for that enemy.

Where did you find this reference, just so we can use it? Some interrupts need the hero to actually be hit (thinking brigand), some are dodges, some are only if you've been targetted (soldier blade dance). I assume you're talking about specific cards?


Rulebook pg. 39 retaliation box at the bottom.

"If the interrupt card allows the hero to move away from an attacker or neutralize an enemy attack, it must be played before the enemy attack."

I am sure I read that before, but a one line sentence in a 60 pg. rulebook is tough to remember after the first read through.


That's funny because that's not how they played it in the videos, and to me, it made more sense like they played it in the videos (after the dice are rolled, you can play a dodge or parry to ignore one hit)

To me this makes these cards completely useless against minions. Still useful against captains and better monsters, but why would I fill a slot to reduce 5d10 to 4d10 from minions?

I get that some Interrupts should be played before the roll, but I don't get Dodges, Parries and similar cards.
Why would you use Like a Reed in the Wind?
You have to be very confident he'll hit you!
 
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George Leoniak
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Okay, so is this still an open topic needing an official response?
Or just play it however it most makes sense to a group?
 
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Adrian Firth
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In the videos with Brian. They play those types of cards after the dice have been roll to hit..........many a time too.
 
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Wallace MacBix
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Yeah my friend and I argued over when was the "correct" time to parry or dodge.

I thought after you got hit, and you'd just cancel 1 success (and use it before the FD are rolled in the case of Crawlers). He figured that it had to go before the roll (based off the quoted text from the rule book). Yet he figured, the one Acolyte card that lets you reroll successful enemy attacks, would be after the roll because it doesn't cancel an attack just forces a reroll.
 
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Aaron R
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Another alternative is that you have to play it before the role (thus risking it being unnecessary) but it cancels one hit rather than reducing the # of dice by 1.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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Regarding the rule:

If the Interrupt card allows the Hero to move away from an attacker or in some other way neutralizes an enemy attack, it must be played before that enemy attack.

There are certain cards that allow you to move away from attacks before they happen ( Riftwalk, Disengage ) - those have to be played before the attack. It's really the 'neutralize' part we need to worry about

So, let's take a look at all the interrupts that deal with attacks.

Acolyte:

Guardian Angel
Faith. Forces all successful enemy attacks on 1 Target in Hero Cycle to be rerolled. Adds 2 threat.

Thoughts - On a first read, this seems pretty obvious. 'Successful' attacks and having to reroll them, but on a second thought, this could still be a card that you have to play before hand in preparation for being hit. Any successful hits would then have to be re-rolled. Thematically, it would make sense for this to be done beforehand ( you need your guardian angel out before you get hit, not after ). I'd say this needs to be out before someone gets attacked.

Apprentice:

Riftwalk
Teleports 2 Squares. Not considered a Move.

Thoughts - You would play this before enemies attack you. Imagine you got swarmed by Grubbers and right before they attack, you blink away. It cancels their attack and they don't get to re-attack during a Darkness Cycle. I think this one is pretty obvious and it fits with the rule from the rulebook - anything that moves the hero away from an attack has to be before the attack.

Archer:

Circumvent
(Optional - Ammo) Strike target before attack then disengage 2 Squares. Not considered a Move. Attack misses.

Thoughts - Just reading the card description says when to play it - before the attack. A ranged Crawler draws a bead on you, you play Circumvent. You cancel his attack on you, fire a shot at him, then move 2 squares.

Wayfarer’s Ruse
Requires: Ammo. Fires 1 attack at 1 target after receiving an attack. Ammo can be played from the quiver or an Action space

Thoughts - This one seems pretty obvious too. You have to get attacked before playing this. Then you can attack 1 target back.

Now You See Me
1 Incoming attack is dodged.

Thoughts - Brigand also has this. This has been officially answered - it's played after the dice are rolled.

Brigand:

Fool’s Gambit
A counterattack immediately following a successful enemy melee attack. Brigand receives attack.

Thoughts - Obviously stated - it's played after a successful attack.

Like a Reed in the Wind
An incoming attack is directed towards an enemy. Attack misses Brigand.

Thoughts - This has been officially answered. It's played before the dice are rolled and automatically hits an enemy. If the attacking enemy damages another enemy enough to kill, it's removed, thereby lowering the potential dice pool.

I’ll Take That
1 Incoming Attack is parried.
This Interrupt card ignores 1 attack from an enemy causing zero damage to the Hero.

Thoughts - Soldier also has this. Has been officially answered - this is played after a successful hit and negates one of those hits.

Lost in a Crowd
Adjacent enemies receive +2TN to attacks.

Thoughts - They get a +2TN, which means it probably needs to be done before they roll, as that is when TN is determined.


Soldier

Impenetrable
Shield: All attacks against this Soldier in the present Hero Cycle have +1TN to hit. Each Rage adds +1 TN.

Thoughts - Same as the Brigand's Lost in a Crowd. Any +TN interrupts should happen before the roll.

Drawing the Ire
Receive all attacks meant for 1 other Hero within 3 squares. Each Rage reduces the protected Hero’s Threat by -1.

Thoughts - I think this is much like Guardian Angel. It has to be out there before any attacks are rolled. You're making the enemy mad, so they should be attacking you instead.

Blade Dance
After receiving any attack, Rage grants counterattacks. 1 attack per Rage.

Thoughts - Says it in the card text - it's after the attack, doesn't even have to be successful.

Disengage
The soldier has 2MP to use before a melee attack. Attack misses Soldier. Not considered a move.

Thoughts - Says it in the card text, it's before the attack.
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George Leoniak
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sjmh wrote:


I think the only *really* confusing cards are the dodges/parries ( I'll Take That, Now You See Me ). Personally, I like the thematic angle. If some Grubber swings wildly, I'm not going to bother parrying or dodging it, so in my games, I will allow people to play those specific cards after the attack, unless it's otherwise stated by Megacon.


Yes i agree with all your thought on this. The two mentioned in the quote are still questionable, but thmatically they make the most sense if used after a hit. Although these two seem to neutralize an attack.


The only other one on your list that deserves attantion would be Guarian Angel. Since, can see you might wnat to use it after seeing the results of a roll, why use it if your not hit?

 
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Steve Hajducko
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Tracker1 wrote:

The only other one on your list that deserves attantion would be Guarian Angel. Since, can see you might wnat to use it after seeing the results of a roll, why use it if your not hit?


Well, Guardian Angel is actually a really obvious case where it ends up not being something you do after. This is because Guardian Angel actually lasts an entire Hero Cycle, so it can be sustained for multiple Darkness Cycles.

So a Darkness Cycle triggers, monsters are spawned and determine their targets and move. You see the Apprentice got surrounded, so you buff him with Guardian Angel so that he can try to survive the attacks that are about to rain down upon him.

It also fits with the Acolyte's style - he has alot of buffs, this is really just another one. It's only classified as an Interrupt because it's useful to know when the Darkness Cycle procs, who is going to need it the most, and hence, you need to be able to play it during the Darkness Cycle.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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The confusion seems to be dependent on the lack of definition of "incoming attack." It seems to me that two things are the case:
1) Every card that uses this descriptor is confusing, mainly because "incoming" is not defined.
2) Every card has the "common-sense" interpretation that you would play it when a hit has already been rolled on an attack, but before the damage from that attack has been dealt.

Perhaps an easy solution to this problem would be to assume the definition of "incoming attack" as "an attack which has already been rolled successfully, but which has not yet dealt damage?" In that instant, that's when the cards can be played.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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ryudoowaru wrote:

2) Every card has the "common-sense" interpretation that you would play it when a hit has already been rolled on an attack, but before the damage from that attack has been dealt.


Do you mean every card that has 'incoming' has that interpretation? If so, I'd agree, if not, then I'd disagree, because some cards are pretty obvious that you play them before an attack.

But yes, I agree that the dodge/parry cards seem like they should be played after a successful hit is rolled, but before you determine the damage taken.
 
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Jarad Bond
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Perhaps an easy solution to this problem would be to assume the definition of "incoming attack" as "an attack which has already been rolled successfully, but which has not yet dealt damage?" In that instant, that's when the cards can be played.


I agree that "incoming attack" should be defined as before or after the dice are rolled, but I'm in a quandary:

I really want parry and dodge to be played after successful attacks, but I don't thematically see "like a reed" as requiring it to be successful. In the latter case, you're dodging and weaving and trying to get one enemy to hit another.

I could either ignore the wording, or require "like a reed" to be played only after a successful hit (at which point it is cancelled and the hit is applied to an enemy instead). I'm personally leaning toward the latter interpretation.

And now I'm worried that other cards are going to come along that say "incoming attack" and not mean successful...
 
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Steve Hajducko
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That's a good point - I had missed that Reed has the 'incoming'. I'm guessing it should be after the attack. It also says 'the Attack Misses', so perhaps that's what they really wanted.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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So it was already answered over on the official Myth forums by Megacon, here's the quotes:

Now You See Me -
Remove a success after confirmation. Before FD results are added from a enemies attack remove a successful hit.

Like A Reed In The Wind -
This card is played before the enemies roll an attack but after their move to automatically hit an adjacent enemy. This would lower the potential dice pool of the enemies if the target is killed (if the damage the attacker can do is enough to reduce the targets vitality to zero if the target is anything but a minion).

I'll Take That -
As per Now You See Me, (it negates a) hit.

I've updated my previous post.
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Jarad Bond
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Hurray for using the same word to mean two different things!
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Naomi Nabbit
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sjmh wrote:
Like A Reed In The Wind -
This card is played before the enemies roll an attack but after their move to automatically hit an adjacent enemy. This would lower the potential dice pool of the enemies if the target is killed (if the damage the attacker can do is enough to reduce the targets vitality to zero if the target is anything but a minion).


Okay, so... what about damage per success? Say, for instance, you redirect a Devestate from Yardu to Yardu. Does it do 4 damage automatically, because Yardu can deal 4 damage max, or does it do 1 damage, because it's only one attack?
 
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Remi Bureau
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nyren wrote:
sjmh wrote:
Like A Reed In The Wind -
This card is played before the enemies roll an attack but after their move to automatically hit an adjacent enemy. This would lower the potential dice pool of the enemies if the target is killed (if the damage the attacker can do is enough to reduce the targets vitality to zero if the target is anything but a minion).


Okay, so... what about damage per success? Say, for instance, you redirect a Devestate from Yardu to Yardu. Does it do 4 damage automatically, because Yardu can deal 4 damage max, or does it do 1 damage, because it's only one attack?


This is the exact reason why I always thought Like a Reed in the Wind shouldbe played after the attack to redirect a successful hit on you (like any dodge, but add that the dodged hit is redirected).

This way, you'd know how much damage is done.

To me, the basic rules should be :
-if the card has lasting effects (affects more than one attack, lasts as long as the card is in play on the hero board), if should be played before the roll (eg. Guardian angel, impenetrable)
-if the card affects a single attack, than it should be played after the roll (eg. Dodges, Parries, Counterattacks)
 
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Steve Hajducko
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nyren wrote:
sjmh wrote:
Like A Reed In The Wind -
This card is played before the enemies roll an attack but after their move to automatically hit an adjacent enemy. This would lower the potential dice pool of the enemies if the target is killed (if the damage the attacker can do is enough to reduce the targets vitality to zero if the target is anything but a minion).


Okay, so... what about damage per success? Say, for instance, you redirect a Devestate from Yardu to Yardu. Does it do 4 damage automatically, because Yardu can deal 4 damage max, or does it do 1 damage, because it's only one attack?


Well, first off, I don't think you can redirect Yardu's attacks back at himself. The point of the card is to redirect enemy A's attack into enemy B. Not make someone hit himself.

But if you were next to a Captain and Yardu, you could redirect Yardu's Devastate into the Captain for 4 damage, since Yardu's Devastate is just 1 attack at 4 damage.

That's my opinion, anyways.

 
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Trevor Schadt
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sjmh wrote:
ryudoowaru wrote:

2) Every card has the "common-sense" interpretation that you would play it when a hit has already been rolled on an attack, but before the damage from that attack has been dealt.
Do you mean every card that has 'incoming' has that interpretation? If so, I'd agree, if not, then I'd disagree, because some cards are pretty obvious that you play them before an attack.
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry for the omission.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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Quote:
Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry for the omission.


No worries, although it turns out we're both wrong, as Like a Reed in the Wind has the word 'incoming' and is played before, while the parry/dodge cards have 'incoming' and are played after.
 
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Steve Hajducko
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And weee - I'm wrong again. From the official forums.

Another "Like a Reed On the Wind" question: If Yardu goes to attack the Brigand, could "LaROtW" potentially be redirected back at Yardu? Either way, the redirected attack would be based on Yardu's ENTIRE attack (not just redirecting one success), correct?

1 incoming attack may be redirected and it could be back to Yardu. It would based on Yardu's attack strength/damage.

Which means Yardu can attack himself. The last line is a bit hazy tho. It makes it sound like you'd roll the dice, instead of automatically hitting, or am I reading that wrong?
 
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