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Subject: Based on this picture, would you PnP this? rss

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Braden Nash
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Xenothon Stelnicki
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For me, no. I really like the tiles up top and the components at the bottom look good, but difficult to make for PnP. The boards in the middle are not appealing to me.

Cheers!
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Braden Nash
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So the actual map is what you don't like? I have a 4 page minimal ink print out of the rest
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Damien Seb. ●leoskyangel●
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I will PnP if the game is good enough. As for how much work needed to craft the game, I don't really mind if everything involves basic PnP. If it needs custom pieces, then I might hesitate a bit (or choose not to make at all).

I know what game this is, and the pieces suggest that it's an abstract game, but I could be wrong.
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Braden Nash
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dtroy_de_rapcore wrote:
I will PnP if the game is good enough. As for how much work needed to craft the game, I don't really mind if everything involves basic PnP. If it needs custom pieces, then I might hesitate a bit (or choose not to make at all).

I know what game this is, and the pieces suggest that it's an abstract game, but I could be wrong.


Here's the the link for the PnP!
Serfs & Soldiers

Let me know what you think
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Patrick Fahy

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As someone who has not made a PnP yet this seems like a lot of bits to make for one game. I would want to read a review before I tried to play. It looks interesting enough that I would be curious though.
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Braden Nash
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Robostrat wrote:
As someone who has not made a PnP yet this seems like a lot of bits to make for one game. I would want to read a review before I tried to play. It looks interesting enough that I would be curious though.


"One of the best iterations of Real-Time Strategy video games into board game form. You gave great examples throughout, and I like how the mechanics sound." -
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4 pages of PnP Serfs & Soldiers
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Nick Hayes
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The octagonal tiles would require a ton of cutting. If I were to PnP this game, I would have to mess with the files so that I could use my circle punches or just cut them as square tiles instead.

Also, I don't have access to all of those crazy parts. I don't even think I have parts that could stand in for the parts you show in your photo.
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Braden Nash
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Everything is provided in the PnP
But if you wanted 3D components, we just use Settlers of Catan Towns, Roads and Pennies.
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upandawaygames.com
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tend to avoid non-rectangular pieces...
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Braden Nash
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Good to know.
 
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Rob Harper
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heli wrote:
tend to avoid non-rectangular pieces...


More to the point, octagons don't tessellate, so making all those is going to be a pain.

The set looks nice, though.
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Braden Nash
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Thank you for all the quick responses. It is good to know that the shape of the tokens makes for a PnP game that is harder to cut out.
 
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Dex Quest
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Looks very nice, but I flatly refuse to make hexes as they're a total nightmare. I'm currently making alternative single boards for Pocket Civ as the original click-together hex shapes both looks awful and take forever to make. Also, if you stick with this design I would be tempted to tone down those eye-searing patterns to much duller versions.

I do really like the top cards and they're bold images. Good luck with the game, and well done for contributing something to the hobby!
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Braden Nash
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willsargent wrote:
Looks very nice, but I flatly refuse to make hexes as they're a total nightmare. I'm currently making alternative single boards for Pocket Civ as the original click-together hex shapes both looks awful and take forever to make. Also, if you stick with this design I would be tempted to tone down those eye-searing patterns to much duller versions.

I do really like the top cards and they're bold images. Good luck with the game, and well done for contributing something to the hobby!


Thank you! I will take your advise and run with it! Stay tuned
 
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Sturv Tafvherd
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PnP-wise: unless it is absolutely necessary, I'd also try to keep everything as squares and rectangles.

the cards/tiles up top are fine.

the boards in the middle have a square grid, so I don't understand the need for octagons (or even hexagons). but, in case you're wondering, I'd rather cut hexagons than octagons.

the various odd shaped tokens at the bottom are the dealbreaker. I'd rather have square tiles... or even paper stand-ups.

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Jake Staines
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The wooden components in the picture don't bother me too much, because I either have stuff which is suitable (meeples, Settlers pieces and similar) or I have stuff which can stand in for them (larger meeples, trains, whatever for the guys on horseback). I'd recommend the same things as the other guys in the thread have said just for ease of build:

- Replace the octagons with square tokens slightly smaller than the grid squares (so they're easy to place). If they don't need to show facing information (and it doesn't look like they do?) then use a pattern that will also look good if cut as a circle - so that people who have arch punches or circular wooden tokens can use those, and people who don't can cut rectangles and not have so many cuts to make just for aesthetic reasons.

- Provide square-tile or folding-standup versions of all your non-rectangular and wooden pieces, just in case people don't have alternatives.




The reason for the octagonal pieces being annoying possibly bears some explanation. There's 32 tokens there for each colour, which means if you'd laid them out in a grid as square tokens it would take approximately 14 long, straight cuts to separate them all (an 8x4 grid, 9 cuts to separate them into strips held onto the surrounding card, then 5 longer cuts to split the 4-long still-aligned strips into square tokens. Make them octagons and you still have to do that, but then you have to make an extra 4 cuts per token, and because you can't easily align the shapes to make these cuts easier, that really is an extra 4 short cuts per token... meaning your cutting goes from 14 cuts to 142 cuts - ten times more work!

Hexes are a little better because you can align them with triangular gaps such that you can cut the rows out in long, straight cuts and then just make 2-3 cuts between each pair of hexes, but they're still a lot more effort than squares.





Anyway, to answer your question: personally I probably won't PnP this game, and here are my reasons:

- From the picture, it looks like an abstract game, which I'm not so interested in
- From the picture, it looks like a two-player-only game, which I wouldn't get so much of a chance to play
- You've been advertising it too much for my taste. Not to suggest that people shouldn't put their games out there, but I'm afraid that I tend to jump to the conclusion that if people need to drag attention to their game so desperately as you seem to be trying to, it's probably because the game isn't very good or because they're interested in launching a KS campaign and want eyeballs. In the former case I have an obvious reason to not PnP the game, in the latter case I just feel kind of resentful that it's not being stated openly that the game is being pimped around to the PnP community so much in order to eventually sell it.

I realise that the last point is largely prejudicial, but that's how it is: it's still a reason I wouldn't bother to build your PnP. It's quite possibly rooted in amateur-videogame circles where a lot of first projects start out with a big impressive logo graphic rather than actually working on gameplay, and then it turns out that the logo graphic was what they put their effort into and the gameplay stinks.
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Dittoes to what people said about the non-square pieces. Also it looks like it would use a lot of ink to print, so unless I already knew and liked the game well enough to want a first-rate copy, I wouldn't pnp this. I might buy a boxed copy though.
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Sturv Tafvherd
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Bichatse wrote:
.... it's still a reason I wouldn't bother to build your PnP. It's quite possibly rooted in amateur-videogame circles where a lot of first projects start out with a big impressive logo graphic rather than actually working on gameplay, and then it turns out that the logo graphic was what they put their effort into and the gameplay stinks.


That " logo graphic lure " seems to be rapidly becoming prevalent for amateur boardgames too. (I'm sure Bichatse already knows this ... but it's worth mentioning to the general readership)

Just look back at MisterKuClass' student submissions. A good number of them are more concerned with the artwork or the logo.

Look back on many of the kickstarters. A good number have great artwork and make very little mention of the gameplay.
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Braden Nash
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Stormtower wrote:
That " logo graphic lure " seems to be rapidly becoming prevalent for amateur boardgames too. (I'm sure Bichatse already knows this ... but it's worth mentioning to the general readership)

Just look back at MisterKuClass' student submissions. A good number of them are more concerned with the artwork or the logo.

Look back on many of the kickstarters. A good number have great artwork and make very little mention of the gameplay.


I would definitely agree with that statement... Sometimes I will watch a KS Vid, and get so excited for it. Then I will actually start reading into the rules and be deflated.
 
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Jon Moffat
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Yup, using only rectangular pieces is feedback I've gotten for my PnP.

I suspect that it's very much a psychology thing: if one pays $60 for a game, there's monetary commitment there and you're more likely to spend hours punching out pieces. If one pays $5 (or $0) for a PnP, there's no sunk cost perception, so people might be less willing to put effort into building/cutting etc.

Basically, I feel that the fewer the barriers to playing immediately, the better.
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Rob Harper
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wowbagger44 wrote:
if one pays $60 for a game, there's monetary commitment there and you're more likely to spend hours punching out pieces.


If I pay $60 for a game I expect the pieces to be pre-punched, so I can get them popped out within a couple of minutes.
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Braden Nash
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polyobsessive wrote:

If I pay $60 for a game I expect the pieces to be pre-punched, so I can get them popped out within a couple of minutes.


That's kinda what I was thinking
 
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Sturv Tafvherd
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wowbagger44 wrote:
if one pays $60 for a game, there's monetary commitment there and you're more likely to spend hours punching out pieces.


More likely: the pieces are already punched, and all you gotta do is push them out of the chipboard or cut them off the plastic molds.

PnP-wise, the expense is using my own ink and paper (sometimes full-sheet labels), and possibly providing for card sleeves, poker chips, or dice. On rare occasions, getting bingo counters, wooden cubes, wooden discs, or even baking up my own clay shapes. Materials would typically cost me under $20 ... maybe even less that $10.

The tough part is justifying the amount of labor. Printing is easy. Cutting is not. Straight cuts are easy, round ones are not. A few cuts are easy, making many small and fiddly cuts ... well ... I'd probably just get frustrated and end up hating the game before it is played.


see this?


That's just plain paper, which made it quick to print and easy to cut. It's hexes, which is slightly tougher than squares to cut; but I was just playtesting on plain paper. It would be a different story if I applied better production techniques to make chipboard tiles. As it is, you'll already notice how rough and uneven the cuts are.

PnP Hexagon tiles on chipboard? I'd make sure the game is something I really like.

PnP Octagon tiles on chipboard? I'd probably skip it even if I like it, unless someone else crafts it for me.
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Braden Nash
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dtroy_de_rapcore wrote:

I know what game this is, and the pieces suggest that it's an abstract game, but I could be wrong.


Not abstract. The tokens are "Discovered" and flipped over by the Serf Meeples. It is possible to discover resources, events (bad/good), and "technologies"... like the wheel increases your move efficiency.

Based on what is overwhelmingly being said, I think today I will be creating some square tokens!
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