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Subject: Soldier Card - Harvest of Bones question rss

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Jay Belt
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This card seems odd to me. It reads "1 damage, Range 1" not "Range weapon".

So... When you put your dice together, you don't use your weapon? But you're attacking as if you were swinging in a 90-180 degree arc. Are you just shouting to scare everyone to death?

This is one of those cards that makes no sense to me. It should use your weapon but it clearly states "Range 1" not "Range weapon" so you're only rolling 1 d10 (2d10 if you don't move).

At least, that's how I'm interpreting it. Is that how everyone else is playing it?
 
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Erik Webb
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I am still using my main weapons die bonus.

The reason in this case for the range 1 is to not allow this to be used with ranged weapons etc.. The card would be absolutely devastating once you get a 2+ range melee weapon.
 
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Michael Hancock-Parmer
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Indeed, the problem arises with the upcoming expansions and treasure decks. Once the soldier is wielding a range-2 spear/halberd, this card would be much too powerful. By writing Range:1, they restrict it to immediate adjacency with your melee weapon.
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Jay Belt
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Why doesn't it just have Weapon in bold at the card text level, the way it says Shield on other Range 1 cards to indicate you can use a shield?? shake

Whoever made these inconsistent cards should be slapped really, really hard.
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Mathue Faulkner
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What they said.

The "Range:X" isn't actually telling you what item you're using to attack with. It's literally telling you the range that the attack can make, and often this depends on the Weapon being used. In this case, it is always Range 1 regardless of the weapon. You still use the dice that your weapon provides, but you don't get the range if it's bigger than 1.

The problem is that the cards don't have a specific way of telling you which weapon/Relic/Shield/etc that the Hero is using...so players have been looking at the Range as an alternative to figure out what the intention is.
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
Why doesn't it just have Weapon in bold at the card text level, the way it says Shield on other Range 1 cards to indicate you can use a shield?? shake

Whoever made these inconsistent cards should be slapped really, really hard.

Well, the attack doesn't require a weapon. You could still attack with your base 1D10 and 1FD. The Shield cards actually require a shield...

I agree that the card design is horrible though...even if you ignore the inconsistencies between decks.
 
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Jay Belt
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mfaulk80 wrote:
The Shield cards actually require a shield...


That's not necessarily true either apparently... For Riding the Edge, it has Shield listed, but the Hero Deck Reference says, "This action card counts as an Aggressive Movement and can be performed with a shield." Suggesting that the bolded Shield of that card isn't a requirement, and you could use the card without a shield.
 
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Mike Miller

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mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
Why doesn't it just have Weapon in bold at the card text level, the way it says Shield on other Range 1 cards to indicate you can use a shield?? shake

Whoever made these inconsistent cards should be slapped really, really hard.

Well, the attack doesn't require a weapon. You could still attack with your base 1D10 and 1FD. The Shield cards actually require a shield...

I agree that the card design is horrible though...even if you ignore the inconsistencies between decks.


What they should have done was:
Optional- Weapon
Optional- Secondary (Relic)
Etc

Then instead of using Optional for combo cards, used the word Combo.
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J Larkin
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What about something like this:

Slot: Primary, Damage: 1

Slot: Primary or None, Damage: 1, Restricted: Range 1

Slot: Secondary, Damage: 1, Restricted: Range 1

Slot: Secondary or None, Damage: 3

Slot: Any, Damage: 2, Restricted: Relic, Range 5

I feel like if this had rules to back it up, it could be more clear. Something like: "The range of your abilities is determined by the Item in the appropriate Slot unless otherwise Restricted."

I'm not a game designer and made this up in 30 seconds, so I'm sure there are holes... but it certainly could have been arranged differently. Or at a minimum, explained in the Rulebook.

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Mike Miller

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LordCyler wrote:
Or at a minimum, explained in the Rulebook.

The real key, I think.
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
The Shield cards actually require a shield...


That's not necessarily true either apparently... For Riding the Edge, it has Shield listed, but the Hero Deck Reference says, "This action card counts as an Aggressive Movement and can be performed with a shield." Suggesting that the bolded Shield of that card isn't a requirement, and you could use the card without a shield.

Hmm. I've seen Riding the Edge discussed as requiring a Shield in a few places though. That's how we played it actually....
 
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J Larkin
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mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
The Shield cards actually require a shield...


That's not necessarily true either apparently... For Riding the Edge, it has Shield listed, but the Hero Deck Reference says, "This action card counts as an Aggressive Movement and can be performed with a shield." Suggesting that the bolded Shield of that card isn't a requirement, and you could use the card without a shield.

Hmm. I've seen Riding the Edge discussed as requiring a Shield in a few places though. That's how we played it actually....


Because no one can figure out why Shield was made a keyword on this card and nothing in the rules explains it.

You would assume it means something, but I suppose anything in this game can mean whatever you want it to, so what difference does it make?



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Mathue Faulkner
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LordCyler wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
The Shield cards actually require a shield...


That's not necessarily true either apparently... For Riding the Edge, it has Shield listed, but the Hero Deck Reference says, "This action card counts as an Aggressive Movement and can be performed with a shield." Suggesting that the bolded Shield of that card isn't a requirement, and you could use the card without a shield.

Hmm. I've seen Riding the Edge discussed as requiring a Shield in a few places though. That's how we played it actually....


Because no one can figure out why Shield was made a keyword on this card and nothing in the rules explains it.

You would assume it means something, but I suppose anything in this game can mean whatever you want it to, so what difference does it make?

Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.

I'll agree with you, however, that it only took me about 2 minutes to think of a better layout/wording...
 
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Jay Belt
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...

It's not "untested" per se, but most of that material has just been thrown up on the website in response to the demand for clarifications. The designer wasn't directly involved on some of it, and there were some pretty significant errors in some of the earlier iterations. The current Hero Reference Sheet is on version 3 or 4, I believe.
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...

Here is a good thread to read:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1144973/potential-unclarity-...
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Jay Belt
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mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...

Here is a good thread to read:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1144973/potential-unclarity-...


Thanks for the link... but the now I'm angry that there's yet another reference material needed clarify the official reference material. This is beyond ridiculous!

My Myth experience so far:
A) Unclear rule book
B) Bad/inaccurate/inconsistent cards
C) Slightly less bad but still inaccurate website material
D) BGG rules forum - thank god this resource is here, but it's still seems like its 80% guesswork for what the true intended purpose of this game is supposed to be.
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...

Here is a good thread to read:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1144973/potential-unclarity-...


Thanks for the link... but the now I'm angry that there's yet another reference material needed clarify the official reference material. This is beyond ridiculous!

My Myth experience so far:
A) Unclear rule book
B) Bad/inaccurate/inconsistent cards
C) Slightly less bad but still inaccurate website material
D) BGG rules forum - thank god this resource is here, but it's still seems like its 80% guesswork for what the true intended purpose of this game is supposed to be.

Despite all of that, I've had fun playing... It took some advance leg work that shouldn't be necessary, but I've enjoyed our plays so far.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
wysen wrote:
mfaulk80 wrote:
Honestly, they're still adjusting the Hero Reference Sheet, so I'm hoping that it's meant to be required just for consistency's sake.


Really?!? (Sorry, I don't follow the news of Myth closely.) I just assumed since it was PDF documents on their website that it was updated material that had been vetted and playtested, not more untested/unedited crap. FFS...

Here is a good thread to read:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1144973/potential-unclarity-...


Thanks for the link... but the now I'm angry that there's yet another reference material needed clarify the official reference material. This is beyond ridiculous!

My Myth experience so far:
A) Unclear rule book
B) Bad/inaccurate/inconsistent cards
C) Slightly less bad but still inaccurate website material
D) BGG rules forum - thank god this resource is here, but it's still seems like its 80% guesswork for what the true intended purpose of this game is supposed to be.


I don't know who has it worse - the people in the US who are now playing the game, or the people in the UK (like me) who are still waiting to receive it. It's a bit like someone telling you that he or she is going to smack you in the face, but not telling you exactly when, or exactly how hard.

You know, maybe I will just make up a new game with the pretty toys. I do that with my daughter and her toys all the time, and we always have a lot of fun.
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Jeremy Steward
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Yah, there really should have been symbology on the card to easily convey what item is used.

For example Harvest of Bones would have a weapon icon and Ride the Edge have a shield icon.

The problem is that the "range" should never have been used as an indicator of which item is used and it probably wasnt the intent but since they failed to convey the item used, the range is the only way to know and the source of so much confusion.

Range: X means the range is fixed and Range: Weapon means it uses the range of the weapon. And thats all it should have meant.

But, Range: weapon is only way to distinguish the non spells in the acolyte and apprentice decks.

For brigand, archer, and soldier you are always going to use main hand (except for shield cards) since main hand is the default.
 
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Jay Belt
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

It's a bit like someone telling you that he or she is going to smack you in the face, but not telling you exactly when, or exactly how hard.


You mean something like this? laugh
 
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Mathue Faulkner
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wysen wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:

It's a bit like someone telling you that he or she is going to smack you in the face, but not telling you exactly when, or exactly how hard.


You mean something like this? laugh

That's exactly what I thought about when I read that text...
 
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Mike Miller

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Hmm. Didn't mean for this to be a rant. It turned out that way though.

Failing accurate symbols that make sense, I don't see the problem with writing sentences that explain how things work on cards.

Warhammer Quest didn't take any shortcuts - paragraphs on each card, over a hundred pages of rules. You knew how the game was supposed to be played, no symbols involved.

It had about a half dozen minor conflicting rules, and 1 (maybe 2?) unresolvable issues, all of which were non-core rule issues (for example, a small subset of high level undead casters could randomly use a debuff spell that didn't tell you when the effect wore off, which is the only example I actually remember having to make up a rule for).

Instead of trying to shorthand everything so games can fit more art on a card, they should try to explain how they intend things to work, IMO. We're playing a complex game, we can all take the time to read a card through once or twice to learn how it works.
"This card requires a Shield, and uses any bonus die the Shield grants"
"This card gains bonuses from Relics, if you have one"
"This card requires any melee weapon, though can only be used against adjacent enemies"

I mean, after reading through your deck once, you would understand it completely, not need to use any external references to decipher how one card uses a keyword or symbol vs another, or open the rule book or a website to cross reference the card with supplemental material.

I think the overuse of symbols is a real problem with modern games, and this game is a shining example of why. With accurate language, you can just tell people why card X works differently than card Y, and not need to invent exceptions to rules or different symbols to highlight the difference.
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Mathue Faulkner
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pinkymadigan wrote:
[...]
I think the overuse of symbols is a real problem with modern board games, and this game is a shining example of why. With accurate language, you can just tell people why card X works differently than card Y, and not need to invent exceptions to rules or different symbols to highlight the difference.


I think there are certain things that are more easily conveyed with symbols, but the players also shouldn't have to learn a new language to read the cards (i.e. Race for the Galaxy). Symbols are a much cleaner way to illustrate certain points where text can occasionally be misconstrued/misinterpreted....

Anything is better than what we have with Myth though.
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Mike Miller

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mfaulk80 wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
[...]
I think the overuse of symbols is a real problem with modern board games, and this game is a shining example of why. With accurate language, you can just tell people why card X works differently than card Y, and not need to invent exceptions to rules or different symbols to highlight the difference.


I think there are certain things that are more easily conveyed with symbols, but the players also shouldn't have to learn a new language to read the cards (i.e. Race for the Galaxy). Symbols are a much cleaner way to illustrate certain points where text can occasionally be misconstrued/misinterpreted....

Anything is better than what we have with Myth though.


I go between cautiously optimistic and super depressed about Myth somewhere between 3 and 5 times a day, currently, I think.
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