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The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Steam? Electric? G7a/G7e thoughts rss

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Hannes Riener
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I am not that experienced so I might oversee the big deal of the electric torpedo (I searched so I hope this was not discussed like hell already just I missed it) - but so far:


Let us - first of all - imagine, that our Kaleun has two main goals.
* First: lots of BRTs
* Even firster: surviving the war.

When we look at the basic To Hit chart:

Close Range Medium Range Long Range
G7a 8 (72) 7 (58) 6 (42)
G7e 8 (72) 6 (42) 4 (17)

*) Die Roll to meet/in percentage



Both torpedo are even at close range - but then it starts to become bad and worse for our electric friend.
And till mid'40 it is even a way more unreliable - its dud-rate is 20% higher.


So this thing is only good for daylight attacks against escorted targets.

For example - firing during day in 1941, how good are the chances to avoid detection?
Taking following drm into account:
+1: 1941, +1 G7a Torpedo/Day, +1 Close Range/-1 Long Range

Close Range Medium Range Long Range
G7a 5 (28) 6 (42) 7 (58)
G7e 6 (42) 7 (58) 8 (72)




So let me combine those two tables (with some fuzziness) - how are the changes to hit (ignoring duds) and stay basically undetected:


Close Range Medium Range Long Range
G7a 20% 24% 24%
G7e 30% 24% 12%



And those numbers become more and more worse in '42, '43.

However, this numbers must still be seen in conjunction with the detection risk and imho the G7e seems to be only really useful in close range daylight attack versus escorted targets.

While, looking at the detection risk, I still tend to basically avoided such an attack by all means.

So: who fills his submarine with as many G7e as possible and why?
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Larry Doherty
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I always take as few as the electric as allowed.
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Chris M
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Only case is June Artic patrols. 100% daytime. With the optional rule you are still at a disadvantage because you still start with G7a's. And in June 1943 you need every advantage...
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Piotr Frąckowiak
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Electric torpedoes... I hate you yuk
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John Kranz
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Yavalion wrote:
Electric torpedoes... I hate you yuk

hey, Piotr -- lol...just wait for circular run effect for torpedoes in Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45..... devil
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Jim P
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But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you… And I will beat you.
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consimworld wrote:
Yavalion wrote:
Electric torpedoes... I hate you yuk

hey, Piotr -- lol...just wait for circular run effect for torpedoes in Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45..... devil


Oh ya, as your own torp circles around and pops your own sub, I just can't wait!?
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Ian Cooper
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jasta6 wrote:
consimworld wrote:
Yavalion wrote:
Electric torpedoes... I hate you yuk

hey, Piotr -- lol...just wait for circular run effect for torpedoes in Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45..... devil


Oh ya, as your own torp circles around and pops your own sub, I just can't wait!?


Some folks think that's what probably happened to Prien.
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Piotr Frąckowiak
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consimworld wrote:
Yavalion wrote:
Electric torpedoes... I hate you yuk

hey, Piotr -- lol...just wait for circular run effect for torpedoes in Silent Victory: U.S. Submarines in the Pacific, 1941-45..... devil


Haha, cannot wait devil, any whereabouts when the game will reach the charging status?
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John Kranz
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Ian Wedge has got another art project he's working on, but I do anticipate the game will go to the printers this summer. Our goal is to see the game ship this year for sure. I won't be the cog in the wheel as I was with THE HUNTERS so no long delays here.
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Johnny Mustang

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I know, I don't see much advantage in the electrics. I read several uboat books hoping that they'd talk about the two types and some specifics. Nothing about steam or electric.

I would think if they hated the electrics that would have mentioned it.

There was lots of talk about duds and missing because the torps didn't run true (running too low, not exploding). But no talk of the steam versus electric.

I'd like to know too why you would really want electrics.
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Ian Cooper
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Outzone wrote:
...in a game where meaningful decisions are already few and far between.


While true, it's not really a fair comment, since real U-boat commanders were similarly constrained in terms of the issues that the game covers. They couldn't control what ships they would get into position to fire upon, nor could they make their torpedoes run any better, nor could they do much to escape if their enemy had the latest technology. The meaningful real life decisions were basically limited to what the game gives us, and the reality was that what mostly determined success in the Battle of the Atlantic was luck: for example, success mainly depended on commanding a U-boat in 1939-1942; and survival depended mainly on NOT commanding a U-boat between late 1943 and 1945.

I just can't figure out why some players see this as a negative, when the alternative - more control - would make the simulation unrealistic. It's not meant to be a game that measures gamer skill - it's a game that is intended to immerse the player in an historical situation so that we gain more insight into the reality.

Besides, sometimes it's nice to get away from skill-based gaming. Too many games are all-consumed in skill and leave too little room for just plain old fun. Sometimes it's nice to just roll the dice, see what happens and not have the result be a measure (and a criticism) of one's intellect.
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Ian Cooper
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Outzone wrote:
We've debated this quite a bit already.


You may have. I haven't talked much about it at all.

Well since the game is indeed very much luck-based, and since you're here, you must not mind it as much as you seem to.
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Jim P
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But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you… And I will beat you.
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Outzone wrote:
...and some mechanics have potential. Which frustrates me even more (a)bout the game because it could have been so much more, without too much effort. Anyway, I ranked the game a 5.


So here's a question for you Stephan, as I have seen your other post, why oh why don't you write up a variant to solve these issues and make this game "so much more" if it is that easy.

I agree that there is not much more decision making than B-17: Queen of the Skies, a game that I love by the way, maybe why I like The Hunters: German U-Boats at War, 1939-43 too, but for me it's more about the story it generates and the research it invokes in me.

What I don't get from guys like yourself is your vendetta when you don't like a game and then you admittedly go on a one man verbal demolition campaign to boot. You wrote a review of your thoughts and now you can move on. But you seem to want to destroy others fun by tearing down this game.

Like I said I don't disagree totally in your evaluation of the game but really!?

Jim P cool
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Ian Cooper
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Outzone wrote:
I sure do mind A LOT, so much in fact that I stopped playing altogether and I can't help but chiming on how much I dislike this design at every occasion on BGG, because I bought the game and I was expecting an improvement over old games like B-17 and such.


Some would say that B-17 doesn't need any improvement. I still play it and (with a few minor modifications) I think it does what it sets out to do well. The problem, it seems to me, is that you want B-17 and The Hunters to be something they were never intended to be.

But even if that's not the case, there are two reasonable solutions:

1. Change the game to suit what you need from it. After all, this is not a computer game with hard-coded rules - all the workings are open to all to adjust. Make a mod, or a variant - add skill-based features.

2. If you can't or won't do #1, stop playing. Then move on to a game that suits you better and, unless you have something useful to say about this game, suck it up and quit whining.

I'm all for criticism - I am usually the harshest critic of games that I enjoy, but criticism is useless unless it's constructive, and out of my criticisms come all my mods. So I'm not just whining - I'm doing something about it and offering my solutions to others.

Merely saying a game is too governed by chance is not constructive, and is essentially just mental masturbation - it might make you feel good, but it's not really useful to yourself or anyone else.

It's not as if you're going to convince any of the game's fans that this is a bad game, because the fact is, we just don't expect the same things that you demand from a game. We don't care that there's little skill or decision-making because we don't require those things in this type of game. If you want all skill and all decision-making, there are lots of games like that out there - my favorite is Chess, but there are also great simulations that are purely skill-based, one great example is Ace of Aces. If it's submarines you're into, Avalon Hill's Attack Sub gives the player more to think about.

Sure, you bought The Hunters and you didn't like it. So re-sell it! After all, it's not as if second-hand copies of the game are only getting pennies on the dollar - it's a seller's market. Bottom line, there are options out there and no reason to hang around anywhere crying over spilt milk.
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Johnny Mustang

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I do agree that Electrics are good for close attacks in the day. I often do a 2 and 2 load once the original 4 are fired. In 42 and 43, I don't know if I have the nerve to get close anymore. I know I don't in '43.
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Ian Cooper
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Outzone wrote:
Anyway, I thought forums were for everyone to speak freely, even if it's whining in your opinion...


Forums are indeed for everyone to speak freely, but that doesn't mean that you should be able to say what you want without any repercussions. Freedom also means people get to criticize you if they disagree. Freedom doesn't mean you get to be universally supported when you decide to act like a jerk.

Outzone wrote:
It all started from one little sentence I put on this thread. One sentence.


Yeah, a sentence that contained a snide little remark. Maybe you were hoping it would just sit there and be left unchallenged, as a kind of "f*** you" comment directed at the game developers. Maybe you just wanted a flame war. I don't know. Either way, if you don't like people criticizing your opinion, you made a pretty weird choice when you chose to broadcast your views on an internet forum. If you can't stand the heat, it might not be such a good idea to turn on the flamethrower.
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Dave Young
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Beery wrote:
Some folks think that's what probably happened to Prien.


That actually is what happened to Richard O'Kane (Top American Sub Commander, MOH winner, and guest speaker at my Commissioning ceremony) in USS Tang (SS-306) off the coast of Taiwan, 24 Oct 1944 on her fifth patrol. It was the last of her 24 torpedoes fired.

Hannes wrote:
* Even firster: surviving the war.


I'd even say it's the firstest.

But I'd say that regarding Steam vs. Electric, Electric are never better than Steam, mainly because of their inaccuracy, which never improves. For the same accuracy, you're forced to shoot them at Close range, which greatly reduces your survivability. Their ONLY advantage is slightly reducing your chances at being detected during the day. You can get the same advantage by attacking at medium or long range with Steam.

I ALWAYS take the least number of Electrics allowed.

I make the same calculations that you do, basically your odds of a "successful" attack - hitting, detonating, and not getting detected are:

PSuccess = PHit * PDet * PEsc

I run this calculation for each torpedo to get an idea of whether the attack is worth it. I'm actually working on an Excel spreadsheet that factors in all the variable (and I mean all) and makes these calculations.

Sometimes it's best to let it go and live to fight another day.
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