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Subject: Come on over and pledge! rss

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Jeremy Knutson
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A $90,000 pledge level has been announced. It's the vermin monsters originally seen in Horde of Vermin. Let's get to that level!
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Justin Robben
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I'm on board for 100 CAD. That's...what ~$80?

Well worth it for the BIGGER BOARDS!!!!!
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Noah Sager
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Kalidor wrote:
I'm on board for 100 CAD. That's...what ~$80?

Well worth it for the BIGGER BOARDS!!!!!


~$90

The dollar ain't worth much lately.
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Jason Webster
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I hope you guys make the level. I own the original and I am happy with that.
 
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I'm keen to see what Elzra Games has planned for expansions. Based on teh recent comment ("Due to very, very popular demand, there will be a Cavern of Soloth reward level. Details are coming!") we'll probably know more soon.

Not sure if I'll add that to my order or not. Will probably depend on pricing, since I'm close to being tapped out already with just the base game plus add-ons.
 
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Pete R.
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If the art didn't go from pretty bad originally to Cartoon Network Reject art, I'd have spent every penny I had on it.

John Ariosa isn't hard to find, and for 100,000$, it certainly was viable.
 
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
If the art didn't go from pretty bad originally to Cartoon Network Reject art, I'd have spent every penny I had on it.

John Ariosa isn't hard to find, and for 100,000$, it certainly was viable.


Why are so many of the people who dislike the new art direction so aggressively negative?

Art discussion is the focus of discussion in these threads (and has also been debated elsewhere):
* Love the new artwork!
* Your new art is garbage
* Kickstarter Alternative Art - As an Add-On? (might be worth noting the 2:1 results in the poll of people loving:hating the new art?)
* I wish they had used bgg's own Tzalem's art for the Kickstarter...
* Why did you change the art? Seems like a huge downgrade to me...

Why not try posting constructive criticism in any of those threads instead of polluting this one with silly exaggerations?
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Major Havok
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
If the art didn't go from pretty bad originally to Cartoon Network Reject art, I'd have spent every penny I had on it.


I can understand someone not liking the new direction - it's art after all. But are comments like this really necessary? Having a bad day or something?
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Eric Etkin
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
If the art didn't go from pretty bad originally to Cartoon Network Reject art, I'd have spent every penny I had on it.

John Ariosa isn't hard to find, and for 100,000$, it certainly was viable.


I've stated this elsewhere, and will try to do so here (hopefully) without sounding like a jack-ass:

The new art isn't for you. Or really ANY "old-school" hobby gamers. I don't think people are giving this decision enough credit. This a shrewd marketing choice that may seem risky in this microcosm, but in the larger "family game," mass-market community this would fly very, VERY well.

And that's the demographic I believe they're ultimately shooting for.

Ironically - yes - it's somewhat at cross purposes with the demographic that supports KS games.
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Pete R.
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I'm not an "old-school" gamer. Not remotely. Cyclades, Kemet, Mice and Mystics, Tales of the Arabian Nights, et C are not "old school". They're just very pretty and don't look like something I'd find in my kid's room.

Rampage is "a family game". Survive! is a "family game". They don't look like this.

The fact is that the publisher got push back on the old art, which was good aside from the boards, but this wasn't a well-devised move. I'm probably wrong because at least 100,000$ of people want to buy it, but I ~am~ saying that the art direction turns a lot of people off.

I hope you guys sell a million dollars in it, I'm not wishing you ill or some such nonsense, but the art IS really bad on this edition and for someone who really loves the game such as myself, this is such a turn-off that I'm simply going to save my money and perhaps pick up a cheap original version.

Sorry to make all you people so upset, but if you don't like the comments, toughski shitski. It is what it is. I'm not remotely alone in this and I can name 10 people I personally know (who do not know one another) that have decided against supporting this project solely due to the horrible art direction.

It is, as they say, what it is.

DigiMon:


Catacombs:


Flapjack:


Catacombs:



I rest my case.
 
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Eric Etkin
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
I'm not an "old-school" gamer.


Ok, bad choice of words. I think what I meant was "hobby gamer."

TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
Rampage is "a family game". Survive! is a "family game". They don't look like this.


I just went to Toys R Us on my lunch break. I was literally all over the store, trying to find a specific gaming trinket. I saw LOTS of toys (action figures, dolls, etc.) that are in a VERY similar artistic niche. It's a cartoony style. It's actually quite popular. Just not here. And maybe not in gaming (yet).

TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
I ~am~ saying that the art direction turns a lot of people off.


A lot? I'm not so sure about that. What is "a lot"? 50 or less vocal critics on BGG and elsewhere?

TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
I can name 10 people I personally know (who do not know one another) that have decided against supporting this project solely due to the horrible art direction.


All my friends hate rap music, yet some of us are very prolific in our tastes. Still, we're hardly the benchmark that Def Jam measures its releases against. I guess my point is like-minded people typically flock together. The fact that you can name 10 friends that hate it doesn't surprise me. You guys probably have similar tastes, at least within normal tolerances.

TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
It is, as they say, what it is.


True 'dat.

Honestly... for example, I HATE anime style art. HATE HATE HATE it. It was a style created to basically enable quick, cheap animation. It's like baggy pants, as far as I'm concerned. It's all over the place, and it's invaded gaming and other geek niches like a bloody weed.

But I'm not going to fault publishers for choosing an anime art style as a marketing choice. And I'm not going to necessarily label it as "bad" or a poorly conceived business decision based on my own personal taste.

Like you, I'll un-vote with my pocketbook if I find it annoying enough. But I'm also willing to overlook obnoxious art if there's a good game underneath it.


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Pete R.
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Finally, a reasonable person. Thank you.

There's a rule in business, or rather an adage, but it's accurate - for every one vocal unhappy customer, there's 26 that are just as unhappy but aren't vocal about it. Your 50 might very well be 1350, if the same adage holds true for hobby game consumers.

The core buyers of this game ARE hobby gamers, I mean, after all, this is a hobby website, and it's where the OP posted the "come pledge", so I'm thinking that the argument that this is not a "hobby" game is bullshit straight away, especially when the first edition was quite obviously a hobby game, soup to nuts.

That said, if there's a 3rd edition that doesn't have obnoxious art, I'd be all over it, unless I simply get the original version, or really, just the cards so that I can simply make my own from foam-core board, lifted artwork from Ravenloft or whatever, and paste it on. The game is FANTASTIC. I just wish that this edition was more in line with the original.
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David Tolin
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:

Rampage is "a family game". Survive! is a "family game". They don't look like this.


Actually, Rampage looks much more like the Cartoon Network examples you posted than the new Catacombs art does. By a mile.

As for Survive... does it even have art? I hadn't noticed.

TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
The fact is that the publisher got push back on the old art, which was good aside from the boards, but this wasn't a well-devised move. I'm probably wrong because at least 100,000$ of people want to buy it, but I ~am~ saying that the art direction turns a lot of people off.


Art always turns some people off. That's the way art works--it's entirely subjective. Trying to convince other people that your assessment of the art is the right assessment is pointless. I could suggest that you see this as "Cartoon Network Reject" art simply because you don't understand the style or intent of the artist. But that would be silly--I wouldn't convince you of that, and in the end you still wouldn't like the art.

(Anyway, it would probably be more accurate to suggest that you have labeled it "Cartoon Network Reject" art because that exact term has already been thrown about with abandon in various other threads, particularly by a certain panda who frequents these parts)

So, arguing the subjective appeal of the art is a complete non-starter, but it's still worthwhile to note that all of these claims that the new art just "isn't for the BGG community" (paraphrased) are absurd. This alternate art was created by a BGG user and has been available on BGG for ages. It's the most popular file in the Catacombs game database (based on raw thumbs). So there is plenty of objective evidence that many BGG users like the art quite a bit. When deciding to update the game for this KS, the publisher made a shrewd decision. Using this art unquestionably opens up the game to a demographic/market that it was previously not hitting, and it also gives a nod to BGG and embraces the fans.

Even if you don't like the art, it's hard to imagine why you would want to be so vocally negative about it.
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Jeremy Knutson
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I preferred the old art style.

There are many here complaining about the change.

However, many people complained about the old art. When Kwanchai originally posted his stickers many people said that they wished that Sands of Time (now Elzra) had gotten him to do the artwork.

I suspect that this new product will, on average, appeal to people, including hobby gamers, more than the previous edition. I could be wrong, but I think it is the case that people are more prone to complain than they are to praise - that those that dislike the new art are more likely to speak up than those who like it.
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bort
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matthewabair wrote:
I can understand someone not liking the new direction - it's art after all. But are comments like this really necessary? Having a bad day or something?


Its the internet - displeasure must be voiced as loudly and obnoxiously as possibly (it shows passion).
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Dr. Love
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I frequent the Kickstarter site and peruse the projects, I happened to have found the Catacomb's campaign -- and not knowing anything about the game -- which I still don't -- I do recognize and know Kwanchai's art, and art style.

Of which I am a fan.

I did a bit of research on the game and backed the project -- partially because OF Kwanchai's ART.

Now, to compare, the previous and current K/S from CMON of the SUPER DUNGEOPN EXPLORE stuff -- I am not in to that art style.

This just me, and my taste.

I can't answer to the previous published editions of Catacombs, only to say I passed on the game because I have a ton ( more of a 'plethora' that actual weight) of dungeon themed games, all of which I love : The original DungeonQuest, it's expansions, aptly called 'Catacombs' and 'Heroes', as well as the FFG version, I have Descent (1.0 version or what ever people call the first ed) somewhere and a few add ons, I have Citadel of Blood, both versions, and I am sure I have some others I can't remember. Oh, Talisman 2.0, the last Black Library Version and the current version(I know, Talisman is some what of a stretch, but still somewhat dungeon crawly, especially with the 'Dungeon' add on.).

I also have the 'outer space' themed dungeon crawls, Aliens, and the expansion, Chainsaw WARRIOR (Which I can't recall if I ever actually beat the game or not, I won the original DungeonQuest twice after about sixty million plays and enjoyed every second of it), Munchkin Quest, and DUNGEON! (I like the title because it is almost as if you got startled by something, like stepping on a Lego piece in the hallway in the middle of the night as you walk to the bathroom) and Doom and expansion, Level 7 Omega Protocol, Warhammer Quest, Heroquest, and of course, the game that will be buried with me in my coffin (or my Urn if my wife gets her way), Space Hulk.

Oh, and I own multiple copies of every edition of Space Hulk.

So, I ask myself, can I speak about owning and enjoying a game that is a remake of a game with new art and some other tweaked stuff (rules, new dudes, other dudes from other expansions without the actual expansion) and have anything of merit(opinion out of my buttocks) to actually offer to some one out there?

Possibly.

To the owners of the original, I hear you, and I am now more intrigued to keep me eyes out for an original copy.

I understand enjoying a game ( or product -- go google 'Coke' and 'New Coke' kids, lots of history there, we're talking mid-1980's, oh yeah, I lived it, baby) with a passion and seeing a new version come along and not being thrilled. (re; any Star Wars movies made after Jedi -- don't even get me started. And what the Hell was with Star Trek: Generations -- no, no I won't talk about it, I promised!!).

So, again, to the people that love original Catacombs (really, the only version that exists as of right now, so I hate calling it 'original'), I am one that appreciates your input, I appreciate what you have to say, and say what you like and don't. I'm not being a smart ass as I type this, for the first time today, maybe all weekend, or all month ( and yes, I know it's only the 4th), I am being genuine. I want to hear and read what you have to say.

From my viewpoint, I am willing to back the game for two reasons:

1. For the shear passion from you owners of the 'original' -- current version that exists in the world. That tells me this will be a game I will enjoy. I want to enjoy a good dungeon crawl. I will always enjoy a good dungeon crawl.

2. I like Kwanchai's art style. I have been a fan of his work since the OGRE debacle. (basically, he did an art redesign years before the now, new and current OGRE from SJG. I thought his design was pretty damn cool).

3. (I know I said '2', sue me) I will always love a good dungeon crawl. There will always be things about any game that will make it not so perfect (except Space Hulk, which is the greatest game ever and the industry almost considered to stop production of every other game because it was so perfect. It is a good thing I got involved, you are all welcome, by the way.)

But doesn't every game we love to play, have that 'perfect' nitch for us, the warm spark in the places where people feel things, (you, gentle reader fill in the blank on that one)? Who doesn't get giddy when you pull the box of the game you want to sit down with?

So, people are not happy with the new, proposed version of Catacombs, some are excited (again, you gentle reader, fill in the age appropriate expression, remember, this is a family oriented website).

I believe there is room on the table for both versions, and I am glad to explore them both with all of you out there.

On a last note, (I may have said that phrase before in this post, pay no attention to it previously), you, gentle reader, your opinion matters. To those that are not happy, I hear you, you may not be able to change what's currently going on with the K/S, but you are being heard. Every comment that doesn't smack of trollism is valid. Valid if to no one else, but to me.

I am glad those of you have spoken up and may continue to do so.

I may never have clinched my decision with out you.

I hope to host you all at my house for the Catacombs upon it's K/S release (don't tell my wife, she can get 'funny', the kind of 'funny' that George Thorogood sings about in his song : One Bourbon, One Scotch, and One Beer).

As Lonesome George sings:

Now you funny, too.

Love,

-Dr.Love




 
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Brent Lloyd
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yoyomama wrote:
Now, to compare, the previous and current K/S from CMON of the SUPER DUNGEOPN EXPLORE stuff...


Kinda off topic - but CMON has nothing to do with the current Super Dungeon Explore Kickstarter (Yea!).

Peace
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Dr. Love
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Thunder wrote:
yoyomama wrote:
Now, to compare, the previous and current K/S from CMON of the SUPER DUNGEOPN EXPLORE stuff...


Kinda off topic - but CMON has nothing to do with the current Super Dungeon Explore Kickstarter (Yea!).

Peace



I am quite ON topic if you quote the entire sentence, which is : " I am not in to that art style."

What I meant by that was their art style -- not their Kickstarter campaigns.

Had to go through and look that bit up about the current Super Dungeon K/S and CMON -- my bad.

I am not a fan of their art style -- Super Dungeon, I mean. I am sure it's an enjoyable game.

Congrats to them on their successful K/S campaigns.




edited for spelling and clarity. Because I am a terrible speller



 
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Maël Brustlein
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yoyomama wrote:
I am a terrible speller

It's called a wizard.
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Bob Moron wrote:
yoyomama wrote:
I am a terrible speller

It's called a wizard.


Ha!

Good one!


still a terrible speller

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yoyomama wrote:
Now, to compare, the previous and current K/S from CMON of the SUPER DUNGEOPN EXPLORE stuff -- I am not in to that art style.


Good point. IMO, A product needs to have one good feature that attracts the buyer, and everything else it offers the buyer should not have a problem with. That's why the multicolored Apple iMac blue was their best-selling color. Catacomb's feature is its unique finger-flicking mechanic. The theme is the old-but-not-offensive generic fantasy, while, in the first edition, the art was the old-but-not-offensive generic fantasy art. Folks are complaining about the stylized art because stylized art *isn't* conventionally used in hobby boardgames. Even Magic the Gathering stopped using unconventional abstract art, like Drew Tucker.

I'm not too interested in chibi figures, either. But I *think* SDE and CMON's Arcadia Quest used the miniatures to draw some sort of attention to their yet-another-dungeoncrawl game. I think Catacombs is in a situation where it doesn't need unusual figures to draw attention. The game has a following, and, if sequels mean anything, you don't stray far from the original formula when creating another version.

Still, once the KS game is delivered, if anyone's interested in a trade involving their KS Catacombs stuff for a used Catacombs base game, send me a PM!
 
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TheUsusalSuspect wrote:
but the art IS really bad on this edition




You might not like it, but that doesn't mean it's bad. I found the original art to be quite terrible, but I'm not going to pretend like that's the only valid opinion on the subject.
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Have people seen the details posted about the two (KickStarter exclusive) add-on expansions? There is a brief outline on the KickStarter home page now, and links (included below) to more detailed posts.

Zombie Horde: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/243822264/catacombs-0/p...

Chicks in a Catacomb: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/243822264/catacombs-0/p...

At first I wasn't sure about the value of these add-ons because the information about them was very limited. Pricing still isn't cheap, but the content looks very cool and definitely worth considering - especially since the add-ons are both exclusive to KickStarter backers.
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Ed Frew
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Backed - the fact that they're rereleasing Soloth was enough to tip the balance for me (unless they stiff us on the price!)
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Ooh... New stretch goals announced!

More cards, monsters, spells, barrier walls, and the big one: an extra (KickStarter exclusive!) board for the Soloth expansion.

Campaign is chugging along nicely after the Soloth reveal - anyone want to take bets on where it will end up?
 
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