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Subject: Swindler Question rss

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Daniel Kotzin
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If I trash the top card of my opponents' deck with a Swindler, must I give him a different card? In other words, if he trashed a Village, and Village was the only $3 Action in the game, must I give him Silver? Or can I give him another Village?
On a similar note, what if I trash a Province? There would be no other $8 card on the board to give him.
 
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Leo S.
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It doesn't say it has to be a different card.
It can be the same card, and actually it must be the same card if there is no-other with the same cost available on the supply (no choice here).
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Chris Schumann
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Take the card as literally as you can. There's nothing on the card about the new card being different. You get to choose, and are perfectly allowed to choose the same card whether you're forced (as you usually are with a Province) or not (if a Curse gets trashed).
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Jeff Wolfe
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DominionGuy wrote:
If I trash the top card of my opponents' deck with a Swindler, must I give him a different card? In other words, if he trashed a Village, and Village was the only $3 Action in the game, must I give him Silver? Or can I give him another Village?
On a similar note, what if I trash a Province? There would be no other $8 card on the board to give him.

It won't be literally the same card, because the card you trashed is in the Trash. But if there is an identical card available in the Supply, then sure, you can have them gain that one. But a card identical to the one you trashed might not be in the Supply, because not all cards are in the Supply and the Supply piles are finite. Plus, Dark Ages has a couple of Supply piles that have non-identical cards, so an identical card might not be the one that's currently available.

It works with Province just like any other card. If Province is the only $8 card in the Supply, then they would gain another Province. If Province and another $8 card are in the Supply, you would be able to choose between them (for example, Peddler, from Prosperity, usually costs $8 during the Action phase).

(For the benefit of the pedants that come along, I will mention here that the Province you trash might not cost $8 when you trash it, so you might have your opponent gain a card costing other than $8. But the Provinces in the Supply, if any, should have an identical cost to the one you trashed, whatever that happens to be, so Province should still be an option.)
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Der Dominionaer
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jeffwolfe wrote:
... that the Province you trash might not cost $8 when you trash it, so you might have your opponent gain a card costing other than $8.
That can only happen, if one lowers the costs of Provinces down to zero (8 Highways/Bridges). Then you can swindle a Province in a Curse.
 
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Daniel Kotzin
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Dominionaer wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
... that the Province you trash might not cost $8 when you trash it, so you might have your opponent gain a card costing other than $8.
That can only happen, if one lowers the costs of Provinces down to zero (8 Highways/Bridges). Then you can swindle a Province in a Curse.

I don't know what you mean here. If you played Highway then Swindler and Forge was on the board, couldn't you Swindle your opponents' Province into a Forge?
 
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Paul W
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No, because Forge would currently cost $6 due to the Highway.
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DominionGuy wrote:
Dominionaer wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
... that the Province you trash might not cost $8 when you trash it, so you might have your opponent gain a card costing other than $8.
That can only happen, if one lowers the costs of Provinces down to zero (8 Highways/Bridges). Then you can swindle a Province in a Curse.

I don't know what you mean here. If you played Highway then Swindler and Forge was on the board, couldn't you Swindle your opponents' Province into a Forge?
fizzmore wrote:
No, because Forge would currently cost $6 due to the Highway.


Yeah, the trick with cards that reduce costs by 1, but cannot go below 0 is that you need to his the 0 threshold to make a difference...

currently
$8 = Province
$7 = Forge

after 1 Highway
$7 = Province
$6 = Forge

after 7 Highways
$1 = Province
$0 = Forge

after 8 Highways
$0 = Province
$0 = Forge

Obviously, other players will either try to end the game sooner, or rush on Highways so you don't monopolize them like that. And Throne Room nor Kings Court will allow you make cards cheaper with just one copy of Highway.

Then you have other cards that make certain cards cheaper, but not others, which really throws things out of sync, like Quarry which makes action cards 2 cheaper, or Peddler which is 2 cheaper per action card played. Both discounts only trigger when you get to the Buy phase though.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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Dominionaer wrote:
jeffwolfe wrote:
... that the Province you trash might not cost $8 when you trash it, so you might have your opponent gain a card costing other than $8.
That can only happen, if one lowers the costs of Provinces down to zero (8 Highways/Bridges). Then you can swindle a Province in a Curse.

If I have someone trash a Province costing $6, I might have them gain a Peddler costing $6. Or, obviously, another Province costing $6. That's mostly what I was talking about.

Back to pedantry: not every effect reduces the cost of every card, so it's conceivable that a weird situation could come up that isn't related to the cost=$0 thing. I don't think any of the current selective-cost-reduction shenanigans could do it, but there's always fan-made cards or future cards or whatever that could theoretically make it possible.

ackmondual wrote:
Then you have other cards that make certain cards cheaper, but not others, which really throws things out of sync, like Quarry which makes action cards 2 cheaper, or Peddler which is 2 cheaper per action card played. Both discounts only trigger when you get to the Buy phase though.

Peddler specifies that it only works in the Buy phase. Quarry is a Treasure, but it could work in the Action phase if you play it with Black Market.
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Jim Shaw
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Also keep in mind the curse pile is a card pile in every game. Early on we got into the habit of only bringing it out when the witch was in play, it wasn't until a few games with the swindler that I reread the rules and realized that we were doing that wrong.
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Roger Horner
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RedV wrote:
Also keep in mind the curse pile is a card pile in every game. Early on we got into the habit of only bringing it out when the witch was in play, it wasn't until a few games with the swindler that I reread the rules and realized that we were doing that wrong.


Agreed, in theory the Curse pile should be out in every game. In practice, unless there is a card where you can force opponents to gain other cards (either curses specifically or a card of your choice like Swindler), I often don't bother. In the off chance some sort of corner case comes up (like someone buying a curse in hopes of giving it away with Masquerade (probably not a good strategy)) then it doesn't take much effort to grab them from the box. As long as everyone knows that the pile is there if they want it, no foul.
 
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Matt E
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roger1818 wrote:
Agreed, in theory the Curse pile should be out in every game. In practice, unless there is a card where you can force opponents to gain other cards (either curses specifically or a card of your choice like Swindler), I often don't bother. In the off chance some sort of corner case comes up (like someone buying a curse in hopes of giving it away with Masquerade (probably not a good strategy)) then it doesn't take much effort to grab them from the box. As long as everyone knows that the pile is there if they want it, no foul.

If it doesn't take much effort, then why don't you just put them out to begin with?
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LastFootnote wrote:
roger1818 wrote:
Agreed, in theory the Curse pile should be out in every game. In practice, unless there is a card where you can force opponents to gain other cards (either curses specifically or a card of your choice like Swindler), I often don't bother. In the off chance some sort of corner case comes up (like someone buying a curse in hopes of giving it away with Masquerade (probably not a good strategy)) then it doesn't take much effort to grab them from the box. As long as everyone knows that the pile is there if they want it, no foul.

If it doesn't take much effort, then why don't you just put them out to begin with?
Given how many times some folks play Dominion, it can really add up.
 
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Matt E
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ackmondual wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
roger1818 wrote:
Agreed, in theory the Curse pile should be out in every game. In practice, unless there is a card where you can force opponents to gain other cards (either curses specifically or a card of your choice like Swindler), I often don't bother. In the off chance some sort of corner case comes up (like someone buying a curse in hopes of giving it away with Masquerade (probably not a good strategy)) then it doesn't take much effort to grab them from the box. As long as everyone knows that the pile is there if they want it, no foul.

If it doesn't take much effort, then why don't you just put them out to begin with?
Given how many times some folks play Dominion, it can really add up.


But deciding whether or not a game needs curses out can take time too. And if you're playing several games, it's easiest to just get them out right away and leave them out.
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LastFootnote wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
roger1818 wrote:
Agreed, in theory the Curse pile should be out in every game. In practice, unless there is a card where you can force opponents to gain other cards (either curses specifically or a card of your choice like Swindler), I often don't bother. In the off chance some sort of corner case comes up (like someone buying a curse in hopes of giving it away with Masquerade (probably not a good strategy)) then it doesn't take much effort to grab them from the box. As long as everyone knows that the pile is there if they want it, no foul.

If it doesn't take much effort, then why don't you just put them out to begin with?
Given how many times some folks play Dominion, it can really add up.


But deciding whether or not a game needs curses out can take time too. And if you're playing several games, it's easiest to just get them out right away and leave them out.
Physical effort of reaching into a binder or box is still more than just scanning the Supply. Especially when some storage solutions aren't as organized.

Some of the groups I've played with streamline this... if the Curses are already out from a previous game and the next game doesn't call for them in any conceivable way, then they won't specifically put the Curses back into the box. Some of them been gravitating towards less motions is all.
 
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Matt E
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ackmondual wrote:
Physical effort of reaching into a binder or box is still more than just scanning the Supply. Especially when some storage solutions aren't as organized.

Some of the groups I've played with streamline this... if the Curses are already out from a previous game and the next game doesn't call for them in any conceivable way, then they won't specifically put the Curses back into the box. Some of them been gravitating towards less motions is all.


I guess this is the key. I keep all the basic cards in one place. The Curses are right next to the Provinces, Coppers, etc. It's easy to just pull them all out at once.
 
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Roger Horner
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LastFootnote wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Physical effort of reaching into a binder or box is still more than just scanning the Supply. Especially when some storage solutions aren't as organized.

Some of the groups I've played with streamline this... if the Curses are already out from a previous game and the next game doesn't call for them in any conceivable way, then they won't specifically put the Curses back into the box. Some of them been gravitating towards less motions is all.


I guess this is the key. I keep all the basic cards in one place. The Curses are right next to the Provinces, Coppers, etc. It's easy to just pull them all out at once.


That is one of the problems with the way the cards are organized in the original box. The base cards are all over the place, in no logical order (that I can see anyway).
 
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roger1818 wrote:
LastFootnote wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Physical effort of reaching into a binder or box is still more than just scanning the Supply. Especially when some storage solutions aren't as organized.

Some of the groups I've played with streamline this... if the Curses are already out from a previous game and the next game doesn't call for them in any conceivable way, then they won't specifically put the Curses back into the box. Some of them been gravitating towards less motions is all.


I guess this is the key. I keep all the basic cards in one place. The Curses are right next to the Provinces, Coppers, etc. It's easy to just pull them all out at once.


That is one of the problems with the way the cards are organized in the original box. The base cards are all over the place, in no logical order (that I can see anyway).
Well, if you have a later edition of the base game, they did implement a BGG user idea of that label strip that goes down the vertical center divide. That should make it easier.

However, I've seen cases that do carry EVERYTHING. Those things are huge, and finding stuff even when things are labeled and in alphabetical order can still take too much time.
 
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