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War of the Suns» Forums » Rules

Subject: 2nd edition rules rss

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Kim Kanger
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When can we expect a 2nd edition rules set?

It is a great game but the rules really needs to be rewritten.
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Kev.
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please!
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Edmond
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What would be rules set 2.0 ? A complete rewrite or only incorporating errata ?

If some things could be better written, then any suggestions would be welcome.
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Ben Delp
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kanger wrote:
It is a great game but the rules really needs to be rewritten.


Agreed.
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Cpl. Fields
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< crickets >
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Kev.
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zuludawn wrote:
< crickets >

bump!...
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Jack Stalica
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So happy I didn't spend $120+ US just to get mired in this kind of muck...I've made enough of those mistakes in the past.

Too bad the war game producers aren't forced by a consumer agency to recall it's games like the auto industry. Yeah I know no one dies because a game is rushed to market - but it's a recipe for shoddy development and production nonetheless.

The popular hobby is 60(!) years old.

There should be no excuses given - by any of them.
 
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Arthur Dougherty
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The news has probably gotten around already but I think I read either here or on Facebook that Adam Starkweather began the rewrite this week. He said he would take a week or so to complete it and then wanted to do some testing. I know WIFWendell was one person who volunteered to do some testing.
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Paul Borchers
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Quote:
So happy I didn't spend $120+ US just to get mired in this kind of muck...I've made enough of those mistakes in the past.

Too bad the war game producers aren't forced by a consumer agency to recall it's games like the auto industry. Yeah I know no one dies because a game is rushed to market - but it's a recipe for shoddy development and production nonetheless.

The popular hobby is 60(!) years old.

There should be no excuses given - by any of them.


You'd better get busy, Jack. There's hundreds of other games on BGG that you haven't bought that you can whine about.

I'm sure Adam and MMP will make the rules rewrite worthwhile for those of us who do own the game.
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Kev.
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awdougherty wrote:
The news has probably gotten around already but I think I read either here or on Facebook that Adam Starkweather began the rewrite this week. He said he would take a week or so to complete it and then wanted to do some testing. I know WIFWendell was one person who volunteered to do some testing.

Yep its under way - EXCELLENT!
 
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Jack Stalica
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mr_peabody wrote:
Quote:
So happy I didn't spend $120+ US just to get mired in this kind of muck...I've made enough of those mistakes in the past.

Too bad the war game producers aren't forced by a consumer agency to recall it's games like the auto industry. Yeah I know no one dies because a game is rushed to market - but it's a recipe for shoddy development and production nonetheless.

The popular hobby is 60(!) years old.

There should be no excuses given - by any of them.


You'd better get busy, Jack. There's hundreds of other games on BGG that you haven't bought that you can whine about.

I'm sure Adam and MMP will make the rules rewrite worthwhile for those of us who do own the game.


...And why was it not done at the outset?

It's apologist attitudes like this that keep quality control levels in the hobby inadequately low. And what a pathetic diversion from the real question which is: why wasn't the quality control present before the game came to market?

Why aren't you asking this question? Why aren't we all in fact...?

If the game was a play test kit which needed "fixing" by the community then in my mind you should all be cut a cheque for doing the job someone - who was paid to do it (doesn't matter how much) - did inadequately.
 
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Paul Borchers
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...And why was it not done at the outset?


Because people are human and they make mistakes. Also, once people understand how a game is played, it's possible that they read and re-read the rulebook so many times that they missed mistakes, or thought things were clearly communicated that were not.

Quote:
It's apologist attitudes like this that keep quality control levels in the hobby inadequately low. And what a pathetic diversion from the real question which is: why wasn't the quality control present before the game came to market?

Why aren't you asking this question? Why aren't we all in fact...?


Because it's my hobby. I limit my purchasing power to my expendable income. My life doesn't depend on the games I purchase, so they don't need to be flaw-free. I also learned a long time ago that tantrums don't get you what you want in life.

I've stepped into a bigger role over the years in volunteer proofreading and playtesting wargames. It's a lot of rewarding work, and there's no guarantee you can catch everything.

Quote:
If the game was a play test kit which needed "fixing" by the community then in my mind you should all be cut a cheque for doing the job someone - who was paid to do it (doesn't matter how much) - did inadequately.


You need some perspective on this. I see a least a few people have played the campaign since the game was published. The rule need clarification. You're the only one here calling it a "playtest kit," and as you don't own it, I don't think you have spent time looking it over to make that judgement.
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M St
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mr_peabody wrote:
Quote:
...And why was it not done at the outset?


Because people are human and they make mistakes.

I don't think that discussion really addresses the problem. I do think that Jack is overshooting the target. But the fact remains that this is a $150+ game, for which, after almost a year, not even an errata sheet has been produced. That is a dismal performance, not even well-known low-quality publishers like Decision are that bad.

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You need some perspective on this. I see a least a few people have played the campaign since the game was published.

Yes, and we can trace their path by the session topics - every time someone new comes on board, we get a burst of new sessions until they give up. I say this as someone who has played a lot of Schettler games because I consider their design brilliant. But I am up front about the fact that they have terribly developed rules. I wish we could get some of the same honesty here. I persevered with the game for over a month, in the face of constant promises that something was coming to help play. That not even a normal errata sheet was produced in over a year is utterly pathetic.

Overall, I think War of the Suns is the worst developed and worst supported design I have seen from MMP, and this despite the fact that it's one of their most expensive games ever. That's pretty sad.
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Paul Borchers
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I agree the rules need development, and that support has been haphazard at best. Hopefully we'll see them in the not-too-distant future.
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Jack Stalica
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Well written and hard truth comments by M St.

Nice to know there are a few non-fanboys with the guts to call a spade a spade when it comes to shoddy workmanship.

And I TOO play test, rules edit, and proof read games and have been very diligent in my efforts. It would have been - by far - easier just to have bought the damn games. Many have been successful and a few have failed - usually because either the designer had a "vision" and couldn't accept valid critical feedback or the developer didn't do his job properly in ensuring quality control was maintain in all three aspects I've mentioned (and one I didn't: production quality). Sometimes both were at fault.

And there's still no excuse...I sure that if you worked for GM you would have been one of the 15 people fired recently for producing junk or concealing it.

Damn poor quality apologist fan-boys...I hate them, I do hate them angry
 
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Jon Gautier

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Wasn't that you, Jack, chatting with the game's developer, Adam Starkweather, at the Stack convention in Montreal last month? Why didn't you just ask Adam then about his quality control on this game? You could have had your answers directly from the source.
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M St
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jstalica wrote:

And there's still no excuse...

I'll disagree with that, I think the perfect game is a pipe dream. It's a matter of degree.
 
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Pablo Garcia Silva
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jstalica wrote:


Damn poor quality apologist fan-boys...I hate them, I do hate them angry


Easy boy, no need to get emotional, after all you havent spent jack on this game.
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Jack Stalica
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Dieroll Honker wrote:
Wasn't that you, Jack, chatting with the game's developer, Adam Starkweather, at the Stack convention in Montreal last month? Why didn't you just ask Adam then about his quality control on this game? You could have had your answers directly from the source.


1st: Because this game doesn't mean that much to me as I have no great interest in it.

2nd: Yeah, because a con where the man is the guest of honour is the place to bring up such matters. What a suggestion - where's your head man?!?. No, I congratulated the man for the many good games he's brought to my gaming pleasure.

Besides, the greater issue is here that there are so many fan-boys in the hobby apologizing for sub-par work. They don't expect or demand better. And they shouldn't be surprised when they don't get it.

I see so many idiots post that stupid "Just take my money!" cartoon. Sheesh...

Laud and promote good work and critique and punish poor work. Period.

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Jack Stalica
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M St wrote:
jstalica wrote:

And there's still no excuse...

I'll disagree with that, I think the perfect game is a pipe dream. It's a matter of degree.


Who's expecting perfection? I never wrote that.

A very limited amount of errata is acceptable - anything more than a page is just poor due diligence.
 
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Marty Sample
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jstalica wrote:


1st: Because this game doesn't mean that much to me as I have no great interest in it.



Then why are you even posting about it?
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Jack Stalica
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Prior to publication I had more interest as the topic is interesting. But I've learned to be wary of monster games. A foreign design perhaps requiring translation? Make it double wary. And so I've followed it intermittently to monitor progress in the issues.

But the larger issues remain and are always worth discussing. No matter whether I own the game or not.

Hey, YOU don't own it either, so why are you reading about it? Guess you could've answered your own question then huh?
 
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Marty Sample
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Actually I do own it, I have not updated my BGG collection recently. And I'm not the one shitting all over it.
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Paul Borchers
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I'm hardly a fan boy. I cancelled my order for the game once, then changed my mind later. I currently have no other preorders with MMP, but I will preorder games for a couple of their series.

If I was a fan boy of poor quality games, I'd be singing the praises of DG, Avalanche, and a few other publishers. I don't buy games from them, and that's probably the best thing I can do. That's certainly better than getting on their game pages here and saying what poor work they do, and demanding better effort for games that I have no interest in buying.
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Jon Gautier

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jstalica wrote:
2nd: Yeah, because a con where the man is the guest of honour is the place to bring up such matters. What a suggestion - where's your head man?!?. No, I congratulated the man for the many games he's brought to my gaming pleasure.


Yes, my head is in a different place, I guess. I generally don't suck up to people in person and then attack their work online. I wonder what you will say to Adam at the next con?

jstalica wrote:
the greater issue is here that there are so many fan-boys in the hobby apologizing for sub-par work. They don't expect or demand better. And they shouldn't be surprised when they don't get it.


A greater issue in your, mind, obviously. Leaving aside for a moment whether this is a real "issue" or not, it certainly is one that you seem to be, shall we say, quite obsessed with focussed on. So focussed that you have taken it up even for games you don't own. You are a crusader for quality in wargames. Almost like Batman, you prowl the virtual streets of BGG, pouncing on badly made wargames and their purveyors, calling them out, holding them accountable, excoriating their effete fanboys, and making the gaming world safe for our dollars. Pow! Bam! All very exciting. If I may speak for the onlookers, "Thank you caped crusader."

jstalica wrote:
and promote good work and critique and punish poor work. Period.


Keep on keepin' on, Batman!
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