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Subject: Help Finding Myth Post rss

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Jay Belt
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Huh... Was wondering why MCG seemed to abandon the BGG community, especially the Rules forum.

Good find.
 
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Dan Gillis
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Can't speak to the original post that may have caused this issue. I can tell you there have been multiple postings where people have repeatedly announced their skepticism of MCG ability to produce a working rulebook. Many people like myself who have seen the evidence of good faith on their part are often belittled for feeling this way.

MCG aren't the only ones who have given up on these forums. That is why there is a strong perception of negativity here. Most forward thinking people can't be bothered to endlessly debate with negativity, it's exhausting. I don't blame MERCS guys at all. I am glad they are putting energy into completing the product before retail.

I, however, will remain as the embattled optimist.
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Mathue Faulkner
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F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Can't speak to the original post that may have caused this issue. I can tell you there have been multiple postings where people have repeatedly announced their skepticism of MCG ability to produce a working rulebook. Many people like myself who have seen the evidence of good faith on their part are often belittled for feeling this way.

MCG aren't the only ones who have given up on these forums. That is why there is a strong perception of negativity here. Most forward thinking people can't be bothered to endlessly debate with negativity, it's exhausting. I don't blame MERCS guys at all. I am glad they are putting energy into completing the product before retail.

I, however, will remain as the embattled optimist.

Yeah, that's what I think the issue probably was...

Having said that, Brian definitely could have stuck around to answer rules questions while ignoring the negativity in some of the other threads. There are a bunch of us just looking for answers, and once we get those answers then we're trying to share it with others in order to help the game succeed.

Right now, it's difficult to get answers anywhere.
 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

That is why there is a strong perception of negativity here. Most forward thinking people can't be bothered to endlessly debate with negativity, it's exhausting.


Thank you for at least trying to answer my question, I would thumbs up for that, except next time could you be a bit less of an asshole to not start fights?

Seriously, dismissing everyone who criticizes something as not being "forward-thinking" and then hiding behind optimism?
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Dan Gillis
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Thank you Jimbob. You proved my point most effectively.

Best of luck with the resale, I think you will find many willing people.
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Yeah I was actually the poster that was communicating with them when they said that, and while I appreciate their honesty, I told them frankly their current approach is not a good idea. They are shooting themselves in the foot right now. They will still be successful, but they are losing customers all the same.

Like Jimbob said it seems they want yes men. Nothing more. Sadly Myth is full of problems at this point, and they are ignoring these problems in this forum. A perfect place to at leas answer questions right now is here. They have claimed they have thick skin but it is obvious they have very, very thin skin. If they can't handle the negativity they need to hire someone who's job it is to communicate with the public. They need some help with PR because obviously that is not their gift. They seem to be able to make fantastic games but they overestimate their abilities in some areas, most notably rulebook writing, editing, and conversing with customers.

While some criticism here has been over the top, most of it has been spot on. If they are simply done here because it is too negative then perhaps they should have thought about that before putting out a horrendous rulebook.
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Dan Gillis
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Joe, I'll keep it straightforward.

Declaring there is a rule issue once is acceptable and dutiful. Reporting on progress and making suggestions is good community. Even constructive criticism is fine on ongoing changes.

Repeating the same concern over and over again before they can reasonably produce a proper fix is counter productive and damaging. Allowing feelings to cloud judgement is hurtful. Even the MERCS guys had these moments. Posting negative comments on other peoples opinion damages community.

I'll ignore your pointed remark, but these are my feelings on the subject. Like I said, I don't mind being the one to point it out.
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Felipe Machado
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F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Repeating the same concern over and over again before they can reasonably produce a proper fix is counter productive and damaging.


This.

While I don't know if the rules are that bad (haven't bought the game yet... I'm waiting for them to redo the rulebook), I believe the majority of the community that they are.

To me, the right thing to do in this situation (for those that have the game and are mad about the rulebook) is:
Tell them it's bad;
Wait for answer;
They promised they're working on a revised rulebook and gameplay videos to help people?
Wait for those to be produced;
They solve the problem?
Go enjoy your game;
They don't solve the problem?
Tell them again...

Of course, at any point you can sell your game... If you lost confidence in the company...

But keep attacking someone over and over again is pointless...
And kinda gives the BGG Forums a bad fame... =/
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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Calm down, friend. His post was reasonable, the only part he got wrong was not noticing it was one of the Myth supporters who hadn't played starting the fights like usual.
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Chris S
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Tchuli wrote:
F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Repeating the same concern over and over again before they can reasonably produce a proper fix is counter productive and damaging.


This.

While I don't know if the rules are that bad (haven't bought the game yet... I'm waiting for them to redo the rulebook), I believe the majority of the community that they are.

To me, the right thing to do in this situation (for those that have the game and are mad about the rulebook) is:
Tell them it's bad;
Wait for answer;
They promised they're working on a revised rulebook and gameplay videos to help people?
Wait for those to be produced;
They solve the problem?
Go enjoy your game;
They don't solve the problem?
Tell them again...

Of course, at any point you can sell your game... If you lost confidence in the company...

But keep attacking someone over and over again is pointless...
And kinda gives the BGG Forums a bad fame... =/


What I see happening actually is as more and more people are getting the game or getting around to trying it they suddenly realize how terrible the rulebook is, so they come post here. It really is that bad. I heard the complaints and thought "nah, can't be that bad" then I got my copy and boom I felt the urge to post here to confirm yes, yes they are that bad. Rarely is it the same people over and over again, it is just waves of new people who suddenly realized how bad the rulebook is. It isn't going to end, it is only going to get louder until something changes. The rulebook is just about universally that bad.

To add fuel to the fire now MCG is no longer answering questions. So we have completely unanswered questions about the rules and that only further inflames people. Then you find out they are actually actively hiding from these forums and you just throw some more fuel on the fire.
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Felipe Machado
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JimbobJones wrote:
Really? We're supposed to wait months (2 months by the time these rules are actually released) before we can play a game? In the hopes that the next set of rules don't suck? Despite them getting FAQ answers wrong multiple times, and releasing other documents that are full of errors.

This is after Megacon responds with things like (and I'm paraphrasing) "our rules are mostly fine, and users should make shit up as they go along. Those that don't are idiots".

Why are we supposed to have faith again?

I'm still astounded how many people supporting them are people that never had to deal with the rules because they don't own the game. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.


Not defending them... They're big boys...

And you're not supposed to wait... As I said, if you don't want to wait (and you don't have faith that they'll do better), you can say what you think and then sell the game.

But then again, you can just ignore what I'm saying and go on and say a few more times... Freedom, heh?



But it's true that I don't understand the hate attack that a lot of people are making against them... Maybe it's because it's a Kickstarter...
The Lord of the Rings: Card Game, by Fantasy Flight (which a lot of people will point out as one of the best companies around), has a TERRIBLE rulebook.
It's one of my favorite games... But the rulebook sucks. A lot of cards are open to interpretation... Really, really bad...

But... I'm not here to start a fight... I actually don't see a point in all this...
By "this" I mean keeping repeating... I do think that it should be said that the rulebook is bad... I'm very grateful to everyone that helped me see that the rulebook had a problem, so I didn't preordered the game...
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Felipe Machado
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chrisoc13 wrote:
Tchuli wrote:
F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Repeating the same concern over and over again before they can reasonably produce a proper fix is counter productive and damaging.


This.

While I don't know if the rules are that bad (haven't bought the game yet... I'm waiting for them to redo the rulebook), I believe the majority of the community that they are.

To me, the right thing to do in this situation (for those that have the game and are mad about the rulebook) is:
Tell them it's bad;
Wait for answer;
They promised they're working on a revised rulebook and gameplay videos to help people?
Wait for those to be produced;
They solve the problem?
Go enjoy your game;
They don't solve the problem?
Tell them again...

Of course, at any point you can sell your game... If you lost confidence in the company...

But keep attacking someone over and over again is pointless...
And kinda gives the BGG Forums a bad fame... =/


What I see happening actually is as more and more people are getting the game or getting around to trying it they suddenly realize how terrible the rulebook is, so they come post here. It really is that bad. I heard the complaints and thought "nah, can't be that bad" then I got my copy and boom I felt the urge to post here to confirm yes, yes they are that bad. Rarely is it the same people over and over again, it is just waves of new people who suddenly realized how bad the rulebook is. It isn't going to end, it is only going to get louder until something changes. The rulebook is just about universally that bad.

To add fuel to the fire now MCG is no longer answering questions. So we have completely unanswered questions about the rules and that only further inflames people. Then you find out they are actually actively hiding from these forums and you just throw some more fuel on the fire.


Oh yeah... I agree that people should tell it's bad.
But some people (I've seen a few) go on repeating that in all of their posts. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.
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Dan Gillis
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JimbobJones wrote:
Tchuli wrote:
F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Repeating the same concern over and over again before they can reasonably produce a proper fix is counter productive and damaging.


This.

While I don't know if the rules are that bad (haven't bought the game yet... I'm waiting for them to redo the rulebook), I believe the majority of the community that they are.

To me, the right thing to do in this situation (for those that have the game and are mad about the rulebook) is:
Tell them it's bad;
Wait for answer;
They promised they're working on a revised rulebook and gameplay videos to help people?
Wait for those to be produced;
They solve the problem?
Go enjoy your game;
They don't solve the problem?
Tell them again...

Of course, at any point you can sell your game... If you lost confidence in the company...

But keep attacking someone over and over again is pointless...
And kinda gives the BGG Forums a bad fame... =/


Really? We're supposed to wait months (2 months by the time these rules are actually released) before we can play a game? In the hopes that the next set of rules don't suck? Despite them getting FAQ answers wrong multiple times, and releasing other documents that are full of errors.

This is after Megacon responds with things like (and I'm paraphrasing) "our rules are mostly fine, and users should make shit up as they go along. Those that don't are idiots".

Why are we supposed to have faith again?

I'm still astounded how many people supporting them with such devotion are people that never had to deal with the rules because they don't own the game. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be surprised.


This is the critical point where our opinions diverge. Because I choose to have faith in someone is in direct opposition to your position of 'I'll believe it when I see it.' Both opinions have justification, but appears I am being painted with a brush of contempt because I simply choose to believe the rulebook they release will work.

Joe, you have really antagonized against me with this concept that I need to play a game to appreciate its artistry, gameplay, mechanics and nuances. That I should have no opinion on the subject because I choose to believe in the numerous positive reviews. Why should we bother to watch reviews at all, if not to appreciate how games are played? Why would I spend hours tuning into Rodney's awesome show to learn a game?

I am cordially asking you to reconsider your attitude towards me. I never intended to start anything hostile, merely stand up for those many like me who are very comfortable with what has transpired in fixing this game. People like Felipe just above perfectly echo my sentiments. Principles of hope and trust are essential in life. I couldn't imagine living without them, even if meant I was let down from time to time.



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Chris S
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Tchuli wrote:


Oh yeah... I agree that people should tell it's bad.
But some people (I've seen a few) go on repeating that in all of their posts. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.


Yeah I don't think there is a need to repeat it over and over again. Unless people come to ask, then feel free to answer honestly.

I spoke with Mercs (err... megacon... whatever they are now) yesterday in the Recon kickstarter comments and honestly I think they will fix Myth. I have faith that they will. When they do I will support them all the more. But I hope they do learn from this, and continue to learn from it.

They need to learn one more lesson: talk with your customers, even if some of them are angry. Avoiding backers here because people are upset is not a great idea. BGG is the centerpiece for discussion of just about any game, Myth is no exception. Avoiding the central location where you can reach the greatest number of backers, customers, and potential backers is a huge mistake. If they don't have the skin to handle it (not meant as an insult, I wouldn't be able to) then they should probably hire or appoint someone in their group who does to handle the issues here.

They don't need to respond to insults or accusations about what they did wrong, but they should be answering every single question in the FAQ. And if they don't have an answer they should say "We didn't think of that, it never came up, we will be back to you with a decision" and then do that. Honestly I don't think they even need to respond to anything but rules questions, but not answering rules questions is a mistake that is costing them. Even if their FAQ they are almost done with does answer the questions they have lost momentum on their product already. Momentum is a big thing in games like this.
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Felipe Machado
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chrisoc13 wrote:
Tchuli wrote:


Oh yeah... I agree that people should tell it's bad.
But some people (I've seen a few) go on repeating that in all of their posts. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.


Yeah I don't think there is a need to repeat it over and over again. Unless people come to ask, then feel free to answer honestly.

I spoke with Mercs (err... megacon... whatever they are now) yesterday in the Recon kickstarter comments and honestly I think they will fix Myth. I have faith that they will. When they do I will support them all the more. But I hope they do learn from this, and continue to learn from it.

They need to learn one more lesson: talk with your customers, even if some of them are angry. Avoiding backers here because people are upset is not a great idea. BGG is the centerpiece for discussion of just about any game, Myth is no exception. Avoiding the central location where you can reach the greatest number of backers, customers, and potential backers is a huge mistake. If they don't have the skin to handle it (not meant as an insult, I wouldn't be able to) then they should probably hire or appoint someone in their group who does to handle the issues here.

They don't need to respond to insults or accusations about what they did wrong, but they should be answering every single question in the FAQ. And if they don't have an answer they should say "We didn't think of that, it never came up, we will be back to you with a decision" and then do that. Honestly I don't think they even need to respond to anything but rules questions, but not answering rules questions is a mistake that is costing them. Even if their FAQ they are almost done with does answer the questions they have lost momentum on their product already. Momentum is a big thing in games like this.


Agree with you 100%.
But maybe I'm spoiled by Agent S with Galaxy Defenders and Juraj with Machina Arcana. Those 2 go on answering everything asked to them.
I don't know if that happens with every game/designer...
 
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+1

Thank you Chris for that response. I wholeheartedly agree, and I believe things could have been done differently as well. Lets hope people learned their lessons on both sides of the table.

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Tchuli wrote:
chrisoc13 wrote:
Tchuli wrote:


Oh yeah... I agree that people should tell it's bad.
But some people (I've seen a few) go on repeating that in all of their posts. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.


Yeah I don't think there is a need to repeat it over and over again. Unless people come to ask, then feel free to answer honestly.

I spoke with Mercs (err... megacon... whatever they are now) yesterday in the Recon kickstarter comments and honestly I think they will fix Myth. I have faith that they will. When they do I will support them all the more. But I hope they do learn from this, and continue to learn from it.

They need to learn one more lesson: talk with your customers, even if some of them are angry. Avoiding backers here because people are upset is not a great idea. BGG is the centerpiece for discussion of just about any game, Myth is no exception. Avoiding the central location where you can reach the greatest number of backers, customers, and potential backers is a huge mistake. If they don't have the skin to handle it (not meant as an insult, I wouldn't be able to) then they should probably hire or appoint someone in their group who does to handle the issues here.

They don't need to respond to insults or accusations about what they did wrong, but they should be answering every single question in the FAQ. And if they don't have an answer they should say "We didn't think of that, it never came up, we will be back to you with a decision" and then do that. Honestly I don't think they even need to respond to anything but rules questions, but not answering rules questions is a mistake that is costing them. Even if their FAQ they are almost done with does answer the questions they have lost momentum on their product already. Momentum is a big thing in games like this.


Agree with you 100%.
But maybe I'm spoiled by Agent S with Galaxy Defenders and Juraj with Machina Arcana. Those 2 go on answering everything asked to them.
I don't know if that happens with every game/designer...


Funny, I actually used Galaxy Defenders as a good example of how developers interact with backers when talking to megacon. That game had some ambiguities after reading the rulebook (nowhere near Myth mind you) and they were so active in the forum questions were answered almost immediately. As a result I now fully understand that game and play it any chance I get. Maybe I too am spoiled, but I think it has really helped germlins and galaxy defenders by having questions actively answered.
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F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

Joe, you have really antagonized against me with this concept that I need to play a game to appreciate its artistry, gameplay, mechanics and nuances.


You misrepresent me, Tchuli came in here without having played and I have already shown immediate respect for him.

I am merely off-put by the fact that you intentionally make statements to try and incite this kind of fighting by dismissing people.

I already explained myself here.
Symmetrical Docking wrote:

Seriously, dismissing everyone who criticizes something as not being "forward-thinking" and then hiding behind optimism?


Perhaps you meant Jimbo? It's not unreasonable for someone to think an opinion educated by experience has more weight than one without. As long as the experience is relevant.

F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

I am cordially asking you to reconsider your attitude towards me. I never intended to start anything hostile, merely stand up for those many like me who are very comfortable with what has transpired in fixing this game.


Be careful of what you say in the future, there is a difference between standing up for something and just attacking dissent.

I think the rest of the thread you led too is evidence enough of that.

 
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chrisoc13 wrote:

I spoke with Mercs (err... megacon... whatever they are now) yesterday in the Recon kickstarter comments and honestly I think they will fix Myth. I have faith that they will. When they do I will support them all the more. But I hope they do learn from this, and continue to learn from it.


I have faith that they intend to. But I'm quickly losing faith that they can.

Why?

They have dismissed valid complaints as people being intentionally difficult, dense, or dumb. They've brushed off comments about objectively incorrect word usage on cards as "editorial decisions". And now, they're burying their heads in the sand and refusing to listen to the people who are criticizing them the most strongly.

So I think that they fully do intend to release a good product. I just don't think that they're capable of doing that without realizing that, internally, they lack some skills that are necessary to producing a game.

And the complete lack of self-awareness that comes from making that post on their KS page and the repercussions it would have makes me think that dealing with them will continue to be an exercise in futility.
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Idaho11 wrote:
chrisoc13 wrote:

I spoke with Mercs (err... megacon... whatever they are now) yesterday in the Recon kickstarter comments and honestly I think they will fix Myth. I have faith that they will. When they do I will support them all the more. But I hope they do learn from this, and continue to learn from it.


I have faith that they intend to. But I'm quickly losing faith that they can.

Why?

They have dismissed valid complaints as people being intentionally difficult, dense, or dumb. They've brushed off comments about objectively incorrect word usage on cards as "editorial decisions". And now, they're burying their heads in the sand and refusing to listen to the people who are criticizing them the most strongly.

So I think that they fully do intend to release a good product. I just don't think that they're capable of doing that without realizing that, internally, they lack some skills that are necessary to producing a game.

And the complete lack of self-awareness that comes from making that post on their KS page and the repercussions it would have makes me think that dealing with them will continue to be an exercise in futility.


I see both sides of it. I understand people not having faith in them. They do bury their heads in the sand it seems. I was told on Recon that they will have the fixes out before the Recon KS is over so I can judge for myself how capable they are of fixing the problem. That means within 11 days we will know what they think a fix is and what they are capable of in terms of fixing problems.

-Side note for those wondering why it all came up in Recon I simply posted there that I was decreasing my pledge to Myth only until I was sure they could fix the problems in Myth. They said they would have it done before Recon was over so I should be able to judge for myself if Recon is worth backing. That's the connection with the Recon campaign in my posts.-
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That lesson is not lost on my ears. However, I think you have neglected the comments of others in the same field.

JimbobJones wrote:


Wait, all this time, with your seeming fanatical devotion, you've been defending Myth having never played it?

Wow.


The fact that the post had thumbs up and gold applied, felt the same. The post itself is an attack on another's opinion.

How about this one?

New_Sheriff wrote:
pinkymadigan wrote:
Sir Wilhelm wrote:
F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:
Many of you did not see value initially with some issues we encountered. Now we have seen these issues resolved.


Sorry, but I haven't encountered any of these so called issues. No need for a resolution to a non-existent problem.





This should win the Internet today. A fan boy cannot be visually represented in any better fashion.



F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

Now anytime someone puts something down officially like this, it will get done. They are not going to blow their current project and Myth projects to come away with making empty commitments. If then it is not to your satisfaction, then you can complain about it. I honestly don't see them taking any risks the second time. That would be asinine.


Wow. This is blind optimism like I've never seen expressed before. I don't know whether to applaud your faith or feel sorry for your naivety. I hope you're right.


You cannot call out one individual this way and not cause harm. The responses by many on this forum can only be perceived in one way.

Now, I may not have intended to offend folks like yourself, but that fact remains. Comments and images like the ones above only served to harm the community.

I have never verbally abused another in this forum, always I consider my words carefully so they won't be misunderstood. After all that, apparently I failed. You referred to me as an 'asshole' earlier. Was there any other way for me to perceive your intent using that particular word?

Point to be taken for all of us. WE ARE ALL this same boat and need to collectively watch our words.

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I think the post in question is this one - http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1146346/2nd-wave-and-reprint...
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Idaho11 wrote:
I think the post in question is this one - http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1146346/2nd-wave-and-reprint...


You think so? I mean it could be, I only read the first half of that page but I don't see a lot of people not believing them, just people saying that just because other games have bad rule books doesn't mean you should too basically. But again I didn't read the entire thread.

It seems like MCG thinks they need to respond to threads like that, they really don't, it is a waste of their energy and time. They simply need to answer questions about the ambiguous rules and straighten them out.
 
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Good catch Duncan. That's got to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I guess this thread can be deleted.


 
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Corporal Joe Bauers
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F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

The fact that the post had thumbs up and gold applied, felt the same. The post itself is an attack on another's opinion.


That is a personal attack. It's not a sweeping generalization to dismiss the opinions of a vast quantity of fellow people, just one person attacking another.

F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

How about this one?


That was another post in response to dismissing someone's opinion (Non-existant problem), rather than just attacking that person.

Did it deserve gold? No, did it deserve 50 more thumbs up's? Probably.

F0rmally Kn0wn As wrote:

I have never verbally abused another in this forum, always I consider my words carefully so they won't be misunderstood.


I don't see verbal abuse as a huge deal, people will do it to try and prove they're bigger. I can easily cope with someone calling me stupid or any slander they want.

But in the world of ideas if your only argument is snide assertions that peoples well-explained opinions are lesser...
 
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