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Subject: Tank Hit By Op Fire during Fire and Movement Activation rss

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Nathaniel Beck
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Ok, ran into an interesting question over the weekend. I couldn't find any official answer, so posting here.

A German PzIV (Movement 6) activates and declares a "Fire And Movement" action. The tank then moves forward 4 spaces. On the fourth space, an American anti-tank squad that was in Op Fire fires on the tank, lightly damaging it.

Question: Is the tank allowed to fire now that the light damage has reduced it's total movement points by 1?

Fire And Movement (p. 11 base rules)
When a player chooses this type of action, the active unit
receives penalties to both its movement and its attack:
• A vehicle taking a Fire and Movement action receives
2 fewer movement points during the activation.[/i]

So a tank with a maximum movement points of 6 would only be able to move a maximum of 4 movement points and still be able to fire.

Rules Clarification Document
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/181463
Q: An undamaged tank on the move gets hit by Op Fire and is lightly damaged. Is his movement rate
immediately reduced by 1 point because of this or only the next time it moves?
A: It happens immediately.


So after the tank has been lightly damaged, it's total movement points would be reduced by 1, for a total maximum of 5 (instead of 6).

So now, if it wanted to do a Fire And Movement, it could only move a maximum of 3 movement points and fire.

So would the tank still be able to take the shot since it had moved 4 movement points already. Would it not be able to take the shot because this is 1 movement point more than it is allowed to with its new, reduced movement value? Or would it be able to still fire since it already declared the Fire And Movement action and already moved?

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Ray
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You would still be able to take your shot because you declared a "Fire and Movement" action with the 2 fewer movement points.

That fourth hex you moved into would have been the last hex you could move anyway, so the -1 movement point for light damage doesn't matter. Had you only moved three hexes, then you would not have been able to move that fourth hex.

Think of it this way, you pay the 2 fewer points at the get go, so if you already moved four hexes, you were done anyway. You still get to fire. That anti-tank squad fired at you as you came to a stop. -1 movement point to a stopped tank is still stopped.

Good question, and I hope this helps.
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Kandras 78
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From the basic rulebook page 28.:

'VEHICLE DAMAGE (text box)

Opportunity Fire
If a vehicle becomes damaged during its activation
by enemy Op Fire, it is immediately fatigued: It may
not attack and must remain in the hex in which it
sustained the damage.

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued.

A damaged vehicle may be activated to enter Op Fire
mode as normal.'

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Ray
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The German Panzer IV has the Heavy Vehicle trait.
 
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Hss Hss
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Very interesting question, and I think it could be argued any way.
What I'm more interested in is how you think the rules should be.

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Willem Boersma
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Grand Stone wrote:
Very interesting question, and I think it could be argued any way.
What I'm more interested in is how you think the rules should be.



Well, in our group we always play that you need to have 2 movement points REMAINING if you want to still fire after a move. As the effect of the lightly damaged token is immediate, if the heavy vehicle would then only have one point remaining, it would no longer be able to fire. I like the tactical aspect behind it; do you move all -in this case- 4 possible hexes with the possible effect that if lightly damaged by op fire you'd no longer be able to fire or do you -to play it safe- move fewer hexes and make sure you can still fire[unless heavily damaged of course]. The rational would be that if you received a hit potent enough to lightly damage your vehicle the crew would probably be distraught enough so as to not be able to fire a shot as planned at a moment's notice.

Having said that, I completely understand Ray's reasoning above too.
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Willem Boersma
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RayGuns wrote:
The German Panzer IV has the Heavy Vehicle trait.


So the above quote tells me it is not fatigued. However, strictly speaking the quote does not lift the restriction other units do have that they may no longer attack. I agree it might well be intended as such, but the wording is poor. After all, I don't think the idea is: "Well, I've declared a move and fire, but I've just been lightly damaged, so you know what, I'll change it into a regular move as I'm not fatigued anyway". I.e. the rule DOES perhaps imply you can still fire, but it doesn't say so explicitely. But what's the use of NOT fatigueing said unit if you cannot change your move and fire into a regular move nor be able to fire. Basically that would amount to being out of options, so still theoretically fatigued.
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Willem Boersma
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Bill, Craig, what's the official ruling on this?
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Silver Bowen
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IMHO, it's pretty clear cut. Ray had it right and the rulebook backs that. The tank can still fire. Taking -1 to total movement points is irrelevant, since it's already finished moving. It's not fatigued, therefore it can still fire.

I see the spent movement points as falling under "what happened, happened." Doesn't affect the present.

I could see the fun in guessing games and pushing your luck, though, and that's still the case w/ light vehicles.
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Willem Boersma
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silverbowen wrote:
IMHO, it's pretty clear cut. Ray had it right and the rulebook backs that. The tank can still fire. Taking -1 to total movement points is irrelevant, since it's already finished moving. It's not fatigued, therefore it can still fire.

I see the spent movement points as falling under "what happened, happened." Doesn't affect the present.

I could see the fun in guessing games and pushing your luck, though, and that's still the case w/ light vehicles.


Oh, he may well be right. What's more, he probably is. However, I don't see how the rule book explicitely backs that (see posts above); i.e. it needs clearer wording, IMHO.
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bill jaffe
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my feeling is the tank could still fire since you paid for the move and fire option, although damage is applied immediately since the tank is done moving it doesn't effect the tank currently but the firepower will be one less

bill
 
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Nathaniel Beck
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skinsfan wrote:
my feeling is the tank could still fire since you paid for the move and fire option, although damage is applied immediately since the tank is done moving it doesn't effect the tank currently but the firepower will be one less

bill

Actually, the firepower for the tank shouldn't be affected by the light damage.
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Seth Owen
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skinsfan wrote:
my feeling is the tank could still fire since you paid for the move and fire option, although damage is applied immediately since the tank is done moving it doesn't effect the tank currently but the firepower will be one less

bill


I've always considered the movement cost already paid when you activated the movement and fire option, so you don't have it have MP left in order to fire. I think it causes anomalies to penalize the tank further by getting rid of its ability to fire if it only takes light damage.
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Willem Boersma
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Kaiser33 wrote:
skinsfan wrote:
my feeling is the tank could still fire since you paid for the move and fire option, although damage is applied immediately since the tank is done moving it doesn't effect the tank currently but the firepower will be one less

bill

Actually, the firepower for the tank shouldn't be affected by the light damage.


Indeed. The effects of light damage are -1 to armor and -1 movement. Firepower isn't affected. Heavy damage will result in a unit's firepower being HALVED; so also in that case there's no such thing as -1 firepower.
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Willem Boersma
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Kandras78 wrote:
From the basic rulebook page 28.:

'VEHICLE DAMAGE (text box)

Opportunity Fire
If a vehicle becomes damaged during its activation
by enemy Op Fire, it is immediately fatigued: It may
not attack and must remain in the hex in which it
sustained the damage.

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued.

A damaged vehicle may be activated to enter Op Fire
mode as normal.'



Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued.

So how about adding: "and the heavy vehicle may therefore still fire in case a fire and movement action was declared".

PS: I do believe the movement penalty takes effect immediately; so if the panzer IV had already moved 3 hexes it could not move the fourth one and would have to fire after having moved the now maximum number of three hexes, correct? (as the movement penalty takes effect immediately).
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Hss Hss
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boersma8 wrote:
Kandras78 wrote:
From the basic rulebook page 28.:

'VEHICLE DAMAGE (text box)

Opportunity Fire
If a vehicle becomes damaged during its activation
by enemy Op Fire, it is immediately fatigued: It may
not attack and must remain in the hex in which it
sustained the damage.

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued.

A damaged vehicle may be activated to enter Op Fire
mode as normal.'




Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued.

So how about adding: "and the heavy vehicle may therefore still fire in case a fire and movement action was declared".

PS: I do believe the movement penalty takes effect immediately; so if the panzer IV had already moved 3 hexes it could not move the fourth one and would have to fire after having moved the now maximum number of three hexes, correct? (as the movement penalty takes effect immediately).


That is how I read it to.

The question whether you can fire or not after moving 4 hexes is more technical. If you do get lightly damaged after moving 4 hexes fire & movement action, then you suddenly already have violated the maximum number of hexes you could move. The question then is how to threat this 'violation'. And both cases could be argued.

I say allow it to fire, because it goes with the spirit of the 'heavy vehicle' trait.
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Silver Bowen
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boersma8 wrote:
So how about adding: "and the heavy vehicle may therefore still fire in case a fire and movement action was declared".

PS: I do believe the movement penalty takes effect immediately; so if the panzer IV had already moved 3 hexes it could not move the fourth one and would have to fire after having moved the now maximum number of three hexes, correct? (as the movement penalty takes effect immediately).


This is a good addition. I'd word it:

Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy
Op Fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become
fatigued. It may still fire if taking a fire and movement action.
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bill jaffe
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woops my bad on the Firepower thing

bill
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