Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Workshop/Monolith: Decklist, Thoughts and RFC rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the idea of Workshop Monolith. You can pay it off piecemeal (especially in a badpub-heavy meta), it's one less card in hand to get that fast install and just getting it on the table feels like a moral victory. I took the following deck to the Sydney Chronos Protocol tournament. I didn't do well, but I was actually let down by my corp deck. My runner deck went 4-1 but even that involved a lot of luck - one round saw the opposing NEXT Design mulligan into a single Paper Wall!

ID: Chaos Theory

Events
2x Account Siphon (8)
2x Lawyer Up (2)
3x Diesel
3x Quality Time
3x Sure Gamble
1x Levy AR Lab Access
1x Stimhack (1)

Programs
2x Atman
1x Mimic (1)
2x Self-Modifying Code
1x Magnum Opus
1x Corroder (2)
1x Crypsis
1x Femme Fatale (1)
1x Gordian Blade

Hardware
2x R&D Interface
2x Clone Chip
1x Plascrete Carapace
2x Monolith

Resources
3x Personal Workshop
3x Daily Casts
2x Same Old Thing

The deck was inspired by "Big Girls Play with Monoliths", but takes a sharp turn to the left by adding workshops. Because it now has to clear tags, the Siphon recursion serves more to slow the corp down instead of speeding up the runner. The plan didn't really work very well. Because most of the time I wound up breaking with Crypsis, actually landing a Siphon was at least a 3-click affair, and possibly a 4-click if you're using a Same Old Thing. Way too constraining. Because I didn't really want to install programs, I was often stuck with little money and a hand full of things I didn't want to install or draw past so I generally got pretty stuck. Atman and Femme also turn out to be pretty bad Monolith targets, because even if it's been sitting on a workshop for half the game, you've still spent a good chunk of cash and can't afford the 5 to install Femme or pay the extra money for Atman's power counters.

Now that we've seen how it doesn't work, what can we use it for? We've got to find a program suite that plays to all of its abilities because if we don't get maximum value out of those eighteen credits we may as well go home. When it goes off and gives us the three programs, it seems to me that you really want to be installing programs:

- in the 3-5 credit range,
- that will see you through to the end of the game,
- that are a nasty surprise to the corp,
- that are all distinct from each other.

The best I can think of here is Nerve Agent + Sneakdoor + something else, possibly Opus if you've been living on event econ while the console's been ticking down. But then you might start pushing your MU limit.

The other side of Monolith is the brain/net damage "shield". To feed that you're going to want some level of redundancy in your program collection, to take a bit of the sting away from the discards. This also helps builds that run Freelance Coding Contract.

And then there's the next question: how do you slow the corp enough to let Workshop do its thing for a while? You can mess with their advancement requirements (The Source/Chakana), you can take their money (Siphon/Vamp) or you can try to make them waste money rezzing everything (Rook/Crescentus). Crypsis/Opus/Crescentus doesn't look like it'll work because it costs more for the runner to break the ICE and derez than the corp paid to rez it to begin with. Siphon/Vamp are out because of timing constraints, influence trouble and a general need to remain tag-free. Chakana could work, but if I can hit R&D that reliably I'd rather Medium or Keyhole. I guess that leaves The Source if there's spare influence.

What programs are worth running? "Big Girls" runs a rig of Corroder/Dagger/Cloak/Gordian/Opus, but Dagger is really awkward without Mimic, and even with Mimic there are still holes at the strength 4 and 6 level. It's fixable with Ice Carver, Personal Touch or Datasucker, but it still sucks.

Since we've ditched Siphons, there's a huge amount of influence available for breakers and other tricky programs. Here's a 10pm crack at a deck - comments welcome on the decklist or the thought process. I'll post back when I've had a chance to run the deck and see how it goes.

ID: Chaos Theory

Events
3x Diesel
3x Quality Time
3x Levy AR Lab Access
3x Sure Gamble
3x Dirty Laundry
1x Stimhack (1)

Programs
2x Battering Ram
2x Ninja (4)
2x Gordian Blade
1x Mimic (1)
1x Nerve Agent (2)
1x Sneakdoor Beta (3)
1x Net Shield
1x Femme Fatale (1)

Hardware
2x Monolith
2x Plascrete Carapace
2x R&D Interface

Resources
3x Personal Workshop
1x Ice Carver (3)
3x Kati Jones
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
FirstName LastName
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fundamentally, it feels like a contradiction.

Monolith decks want their good programs in the grip so they can be installed by Monolith. Personal Workshop decks want their good programs hosted on the PW to take advantage of Stimhacks and BP.

You wrote "Nerve Agent + Sneakdoor + something else, possibly Opus" which sounds just fine, but why not just install those on the PW?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher MacLeod
Canada
Moncton
New Brunswick
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
4 Sneakdoor + Nerve Agent surprise runs are pretty cool, though its effectiveness will vary greatly from "win outright" to "does nothing because no agendas are in HQ".

Alternately what about Morning Star + Paintbrush as two of your Monolith installs? Makes good use of 4 of your 8 MU, you get a really efficient way to break through annoying multi-subroutine ICE and can still have an Opus out and 2 MU of other programs (a Sneakdoor, or Medium + Sharpshooter).

It's really too bad Stimhack brain damage can't be prevented by Monolith, it would make the card so much better...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian H
United States
Anacortes
Washington
flag msg tools
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The problem with Monolith (well, one of the problems) is that it's hard to get the best value out of your program installs. If you install programs that are less than 4 credits, you are wasting money. If you install programs that are more than 4 credits, you typically won't have enough to install Monolith PLUS pay the extra for those programs. So the ideal situation is that you have 3 4-credit programs to install in-hand, and then you are paying 6 for 3 MU and the brain damage prevention/damage choice ability. So to make use of that extra MU you have to pay to install more programs.

By the time you do all that, the corp could have won already.

I guess the ideal use of Monolith is in a Motivation/Eureka! deck, but again you need a perfect hand of 3 ideal programs and Eureka!, as well as 8+ credits in order to pull it off.

If Monolith could install programs from the heap it would be FAR better, and really not even unbalanced.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you all for your thoughts.

DrTall: You're correct that it feels like a contradiction, but remember that the workshops also host hardware and early-game breakers.

Kiv6: Sadly true, and Nerve Agent is just so effective at making the corp tighten up HQ. Morning Star and Paintbrush are two very cool programs (and they'd work well with Crescentus recursion, too). It's close to what I want, in terms of providing a transition from "we're scrapping it out", to "uh-oh, the runner can get in EVERYWHERE for cheap".

MavericK96: The designer of the "Big Girls" deck found that even installing three Cloaks with Monolith wasn't a huge waste, but I agree that it's suboptimal. Just pointing out that you don't need the stars to align. You're also right that any half-decent corp will have won by then, which is why I talked about slowing them down either with Crescentus, Siphon or The Source. Sadly, you forgot that Eureka! costs 3 itself, so you're back up to 11 to Eureka! it out, plus whatever additional costs you had for your programs. I don't think it needed a "from heap" ability (that's Exile's thing), but if it did its from-hand installs by spending power counters it would've been good.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grish Noren
msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
You can get 3 mu from Toolbox and a memchip, so I think you'd want to really emphasize the install from hand gimmick or be in a damage heavy meta and I just don't think the card has support yet.

Like you said, nerve agent & sneakdoor is a good drop, but it isn't any better than just dropping it normally or off of workshops.

3 mediums? It's not consistent enough. Maybe one day programs will exist where gaining the actions from a PW drop and having a full turn will lend you a significant and immediate advantage, but I'm not sure.

Assuming all of the programs you drop are 4 credits, Monolith costs you (18-12) 6 for 3 mu, which isn't bad and gives you a nice tertiary ability. But, getting 18 credits isn't simple. And even PW over a bit of time is going to find you in a position where you'd rather have your breakers out.

I think you need to wait for more utility programs that are in the green zone for cost and that have immediate game state affects when dropped.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian H
United States
Anacortes
Washington
flag msg tools
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
endgame wrote:
Sadly, you forgot that Eureka! costs 3 itself, so you're back up to 11 to Eureka! it out, plus whatever additional costs you had for your programs.


Ah, you're right...that kinda just makes it even worse overall.

I'm just not sure Workshop is viable for Monolith given the time it would take for you to see value...all the while you are either saving up money by not installing much, or you are installing the programs you would want to install with Monolith because you need them to prevent the corp from winning the game.

Trust me, I love Shaper and I would love to see Monolith work, but in the current cardpool and overall Corp strategy, even in my local meta that is not entirely FA...I still don't think it would work.

I do like your idea of using BP to pay it off, but where are you going to be running without any of those programs out? I guess you could throw down a Faerie or something and face-check, solely for the purpose of using BP credits to pay off Monolith, but even then that would be an early game move and other than GRNDL there are probably not a lot of corps racking up BP that early.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C Spiekerman
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's one that I tried a while back. I didn't try it too many times, but I remember one glorious walk-off medium run.

The basic idea is to have a reasonably functional deck to keep the corp honest while slowly building the triple-medium monolith run. The three breakers are all good, and test run/scavenge/femme can keep the corp from getting too far ahead. Get that Monolith cooking on the PW ASAP, find your breakers with diesel/quality times, and pocket the mediums for later.

I just added in the New Angeles City Halls, so they are new. I hate the idea of Breaking News or Posted Bounty trashing your Personal Workshop. Seems like I remember having a version with a couple of Vamps, which, if it works out, can allow you one turn of 3 triple-medium runs. That one must have utilized no Corroders.

This may work better with Professional Contacts in place of Magnum, but that makes it harder to pressure the Corp early.

Anyway give this a try.

CT - monomedium

Chaos Theory: Wünderkind (Cyber Exodus)

Event (14)
3x Diesel (Core Set)
2x Quality Time (Humanity's Shadow)
3x Scavenge (Creation and Control)
3x Sure Gamble (Core Set)
3x Test Run (Cyber Exodus)

Hardware (3)
3x Monolith (Creation and Control)

Resource (11)
3x Kati Jones (Humanity's Shadow)
2x New Angeles City Hall (Future Proof)
3x Personal Workshop (Cyber Exodus)
3x Public Sympathy (Cyber Exodus)

Icebreaker (6)
2x Corroder (Core Set) ••••
2x Femme Fatale (Core Set) ••
2x Gordian Blade (Core Set)

Program (6)
3x Magnum Opus (Core Set)
3x Medium (Core Set) ••••• ••••

15 influence spent (max 15)
40 cards (min 40)
Cards up to Creation and Control

Deck built on NetrunnerDB.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Turner
New Zealand
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Do you really need all three Kati Jones when you have 3 Diesel, 2 Quality Time in a 40 card Chaos Theory? Not to mention 3 Magnum Opus which negates the need for her at all if you get it down first.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher MacLeod
Canada
Moncton
New Brunswick
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
A couple people have described Monolith as being $6 for 3 MU, which I think understates its usefulness; you also save 2 clicks compared to normally installing 3 programs. In an Opus deck a click is worth at least $2 so it's fair to say you spend only $2 for 3 MU.

Here's an (untested) concept utilizing Kit and Paintbrush. The idea is to play a normal Kit game early, getting out Yog and Opus in the usual way, and then making rushed remotes unsafe with Yog and Test Run + Femme. Even Fast Advance has to slow down a little against Kit to adequately secure their centrals.

The Monolith's job then is mostly to get enough MU to run Opus + breakers + utility; the big advantage of Scavenge is you can install whatever random programs are in your hand like a 2nd copy of Yog/Opus for a $4 discount, and then Scavenge it for value later on when you draw something like Sneakdoor or Femme.

Monolith Kit (45 cards)

Rielle "Kit" Peddler: Transhuman

Event (16)
3 Diesel
2 Quality Time
3 Scavenge
2 Stimhack ••
3 Sure Gamble
3 Test Run

Hardware (7)
2 Monolith
2 R&D Interface
3 The Personal Touch

Resource (5)
2 Armitage Codebusting
3 Personal Workshop

Icebreaker (8)
1 Femme Fatale
1 Inti
2 Sharpshooter
1 Snowball
3 Yog.0 •••

Program (9)
1 Datasucker
3 Magnum Opus
1 Paintbrush
3 Self-modifying Code
1 Sneakdoor Beta •••

Built with http://netrunner.meteor.com/

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Glenn Glenn
msg tools
mb
I wonder if there is a quicker way to get to the necessary funds. Instead of a ridiculously slow opus or workshop build, maybe just lucky find, hedge fund, and modded are the key. Maybe even liberated accounts. 2 lucky finds in one turn puts you at 15 bucks, pretty close.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher MacLeod
Canada
Moncton
New Brunswick
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Boogie knights wrote:
I wonder if there is a quicker way to get to the necessary funds. Instead of a ridiculously slow opus or workshop build, maybe just lucky find, hedge fund, and modded are the key. Maybe even liberated accounts. 2 lucky finds in one turn puts you at 15 bucks, pretty close.


Sure, but then you don't have anything interesting in your hand to install with Monolith. You also probably have to run three copies to see one early enough. The advantage of slow Monolith is that you can accumulate programs that you care about installing, and 2x is fine.

I won a game this morning with the above Kit Monolith against Jinteki: PE. Started with both of them in my opening hand (lol) and got one on Workshop pretty early. Poked around and got a couple points while Workshop ticked, then set up Opus and clicked for a bit.

He got out a Melange and for a couple turns he took $7 and I took $8, then he tried to IAA in a remote behind three ICE. I ran the remote with something like $25 and paid the remaining $11 on the Monolith to set up Femme, Snowball, and Sharpshooter. Paying the $5 extra for the Femme was well worth it as I bypassed his ICE and got in.

At that point he had no hope of scoring ever again as I was fully rigged with Opus, Femme, Snowball, Sharpshooter, and Yog. The damage prevention ability was actually useful as I was able to discard a duplicate Opus and keep my good stuff when stealing the remaining agendas from R&D.

Something I didn't really appreciate until now was how good Monolith is at busting remotes. Sure, I could've had all my programs hosted on PW in advance, but then he would be totally aware of my breaker composition; instead he wasted his money on installing and rezzing ICE that I could break efficiently.

I'm looking forward to some more games with the deck as it seems promising.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Kelly
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That Kit deck does look promising, but I personally find that I have much more success with Cyber-Cypher over Yog. That would free up influence and let you run Corroder and Nerve Agent (if you also took out a Stimhack).

Once my copy of Double Time arrives, I might also give it a go in Andy - spend the first turn dumping econ stuff, land siphons, draw up again and BAM!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.