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Subject: Criminal AI Breaker? rss

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Vince Alvarez
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Shaper has Alpha, Omega, and Atman; while Anarchs have Darwin, Knight, and Wyrm. It seems like Criminal is due some AI breakers.

One thought I did have is that maybe the Central Only Breaker strategies would replace an in-faction AI breaker strategy. I haven't looked at a recent card list of known cards from H&P (to determine if we know all the programs that are coming).

Well, does the collective hivemind think that Criminal will get an AI breaker in H&P? What do we think/want this AI breaker to look like?
 
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Michael Redston
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I still half expect Criminals to get an AI breaker in H&P that can only be used on remote servers, though that might be OP.
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Crypsis! (Yes, we stole it. Deal with it.)
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Andrew Keddie
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Or maybe, (and here's a crazy thought), FFG deliberately AVOID giving Criminal their own AI so they have to go out of faction for it (or take Crypsis/Overmind)? Kinda like how Anarch don't have any non-virus Program tutors?

I actually think keeping each faction weak in one or two areas is important.
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Zeb
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Or maybe, (and here's a crazy thought), FFG deliberately AVOID giving Criminal their own AI so they have to go out of faction for it (or take Crypsis/Overmind)? Kinda like how Anarch don't have any non-virus Program tutors?

I actually think keeping each faction weak in one or two areas is important.


I think this would apply if AI breakers didn't behave so differently. For example, Overmind serves a very different role compared to Wyrm, Darwin, etc.
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Andrew Keddie
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Zebadiah wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Or maybe, (and here's a crazy thought), FFG deliberately AVOID giving Criminal their own AI so they have to go out of faction for it (or take Crypsis/Overmind)? Kinda like how Anarch don't have any non-virus Program tutors?

I actually think keeping each faction weak in one or two areas is important.


I think this would apply if AI breakers didn't behave so differently. For example, Overmind serves a very different role compared to Wyrm, Darwin, etc.


Special Order behaves very differently to SMC and Test Run too. What's your point?

As far as I can see, all AI breakers are powerful (able to break all subtypes) with some kind of drawback. If they were too similar, there's be no point printing them.
 
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Ray Saltrelli
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Criminals with a decent in-faction AI breaker would be grossly OP. With all the tricks they have up their sleeves, it can be tough to keep out a good criminal player who has no ICE breakers installed. Crypsis, while crappy in general, is great for criminals when they have just one troublesome piece of ICE they can't get around, but its pretty high maintenance so it remains balanced since criminals have to be judicious about their use of Crypsis. Give them an AI breaker comparable to the other factions' AI breakers and you give criminals a ridiculous advantage. Almost all runners would play criminal and criminal would almost always win.
 
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Kaiwen Zhang
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Criminals did fine with just Crypsis, and now Knight, but I can see them getting a central only AI breaker with the typical crim stats (2 to break sub, X for Y strength pump that is not 1 for 1)
 
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Zeb
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
CommissarFeesh wrote:
Or maybe, (and here's a crazy thought), FFG deliberately AVOID giving Criminal their own AI so they have to go out of faction for it (or take Crypsis/Overmind)? Kinda like how Anarch don't have any non-virus Program tutors?

I actually think keeping each faction weak in one or two areas is important.


I think this would apply if AI breakers didn't behave so differently. For example, Overmind serves a very different role compared to Wyrm, Darwin, etc.


Special Order behaves very differently to SMC and Test Run too. What's your point?

As far as I can see, all AI breakers are powerful (able to break all subtypes) with some kind of drawback. If they were too similar, there's be no point printing them.


My point is that there is plenty of design space for a criminal AI breaker.

Kroen:
It's silly to claim it would be overpowered without seeing anything about the card.
 
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Micheal Keane
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Hijacked Scheduling Sub-System
2 MU
Criminal - 3 inf
Icebreaker - AI
0 strength

0: Break ice subroutine and take a tag.
3: +4 strength

Install Hijacked Scheduling Sub-System only if you made a successful run on HQ this turn.

(Thematically, it's an AI that's scheduling authorized connections through ice for you at the cost of giving away where you're connecting from.)
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Zak Jarvis
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I think the problem with envisioning a criminal AI breaker is that they tend to be the "all-the-monies" faction, so making it expensive to use in terms of credits may be hard. I like the idea of playing on another Criminal forté.

[The picture would be a shady-looking fellow with a PAD that he is jacking into a socket in a corporate-looking hallway. He is wearing a face-mike and looking nervously over his shoulder. Maybe the viewer can see a security guard approaching just around the corner.]

Hotwire
Criminal (***)
Icebreaker - AI
Cost 2
MU 0
Strength 5
Trash one connection: +5 strength.
Trash one connection: Break any number of ICE subroutines.
 
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Michael Redston
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Zebadiah wrote:
Kroen:
It's silly to claim it would be overpowered without seeing anything about the card.

Irrelevant. If central-only breakers didn't exist then it'd be fine. But they do, so having a remote-only AI breaker patches the hole in that rig and criminals save tons of influence. Unless that breaker is grossly inefficient (2c: break sub. 2c: +1 strengh) then it'd be OP.

Also, I said "might be OP", and we all know that the first rule of the internet is that if you say "might" you can say whatever you want after it without being wrong.
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Fredrik Zetterman
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Of course they could end up with an AI breaker, but it's not something I personally would bet any money on. It just doesn't seem to fit into the faction.

I could however see them getting more programs to pass or bypass ICE by other means, such as Grappling Hook and Copycat.

If they were to get an AI breaker, I would expect it to trash itself after use. Having something that can permanently break all ICE seems too sophisticated for Criminals
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Oh gods, I'd forgotten about Copycat. Central-only breakers and Copycat could be a nasty way to sneak into remotes (if the Corp doesn't see the Copycat coming, and sets their ICE up accordingly).
 
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Michael Redston
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Oh gods, I'd forgotten about Copycat. Central-only breakers and Copycat could be a nasty way to sneak into remotes (if the Corp doesn't see the Copycat coming, and sets their ICE up accordingly).

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Ony Moose
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BUT ESCHER+COPYCAT???

Someone on reddit was claiming to post spoilers from seeing the chinese H&P cards, and one of the those was an AI breaker with Str=number of corp agenda points scored, and 2C:Break 3 subs, use only 1 time per ice.

If its true or not I don't know, but it would fit with Stirling for a Criminal come-from-behind deck.
 
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Nephtys Nephtys
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They ARE getting an AI breaker. That's not AI or a breaker. It's called Grappling Hook, and will be awesome (but specialized)
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Octo Rex
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I think there's often an un-warranted need for symmetry among some fans. They should only get an AI-breaker if it makes gameplay/balance sense for them to have one. Apparently it hasn't thus far.
 
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Captain Frisk
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Octopus Rex wrote:
I think there's often an un-warranted need for symmetry among some fans. They should only get an AI-breaker if it makes gameplay/balance sense for them to have one. Apparently it hasn't thus far.


Crypsis can run on remote servers - is this not good enough?
 
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Dirk Tebben
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Nephtys wrote:
They ARE getting an AI breaker. That's not AI or a breaker. It's called Grappling Hook, and will be awesome (but specialized)


I never thought about it until now, but why isn't Grappling Hook classified as an icebreaker? It's a program that breaks ice subroutines, isn't it?
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Brian H
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stillnotking wrote:
Nephtys wrote:
They ARE getting an AI breaker. That's not AI or a breaker. It's called Grappling Hook, and will be awesome (but specialized)


I never thought about it until now, but why isn't Grappling Hook classified as an icebreaker? It's a program that breaks ice subroutines, isn't it?


I think mainly because it doesn't have a strength...unlike Deus X for example.
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Matt
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Nephtys wrote:
They ARE getting an AI breaker. That's not AI or a breaker. It's called Grappling Hook, and will be awesome (but specialized)


QFT.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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MavericK96 wrote:
stillnotking wrote:
Nephtys wrote:
They ARE getting an AI breaker. That's not AI or a breaker. It's called Grappling Hook, and will be awesome (but specialized)


I never thought about it until now, but why isn't Grappling Hook classified as an icebreaker? It's a program that breaks ice subroutines, isn't it?


I think mainly because it doesn't have a strength...unlike Deus X for example.


This exactly. If Grappling Hook had the Icebreaker subtype, it would need Strength to interact with anything, meaning Troubleshooter could boost it out of range (remember kids, Troubleshooter can make your AP ICE effective even against Deus Ex!).

FFG made a deliberate decision NOT to make Grappling Hook an Icebreaker so it's effective against any multi-subroutine ICE (and pointless against single-subroutine ICE) without worrying about Strength.
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Ony Moose
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And it also means Grappling hook can be hosted on Djinn, but cannot be searched for with Special order. If it were an icebreaker, special ordering grappling hook might be too good?
 
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Steven Tu
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Femme Fatale. Basically breaks everything with a restriction, expensive, cos criminal = money.

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