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Subject: Black Cat (39) + Old Toby (47) unbeatable? rss

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Günter Bauer
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If you get these two cards, you will sit in a speedboat and jump over the mountains like a cat (2-Player). I got it twice, my friend gave up twice paddeling near Saint Louis, while I was already climbing and killing myself laughing...
A case of overpowered Cards?
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Andrew MacLeod
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I'm afraid you were playing it wrong. Black Cat gets a player primary resources, such as fur, lumber, equipment and food, not horses and canoes, which are "transformed" resources.
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Jon Ben
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Of course I've been up all night! Not because of caffeine, it was insomnia. I couldn't stop thinking about coffee.
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finalfinger wrote:
If you get these two cards, you will sit in a speedboat and jump over the mountains like a cat (2-Player). I got it twice, my friend gave up twice paddeling near Saint Louis, while I was already climbing and killing myself laughing...
A case of overpowered Cards?


Is this a test to see if I remember what these cards do?
It's so annoying when people make it hard to provide feedback/help.
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Tim Laster
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JonBen wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
If you get these two cards, you will sit in a speedboat and jump over the mountains like a cat (2-Player). I got it twice, my friend gave up twice paddeling near Saint Louis, while I was already climbing and killing myself laughing...
A case of overpowered Cards?


Is this a test to see if I remember what these cards do?
It's so annoying when people make it hard to provide feedback/help.


They give the numbers, which makes it easy for us to locate in the card in the rules(which the pdf is easily available online)
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Jon Ben
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ohverload wrote:
JonBen wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
If you get these two cards, you will sit in a speedboat and jump over the mountains like a cat (2-Player). I got it twice, my friend gave up twice paddeling near Saint Louis, while I was already climbing and killing myself laughing...
A case of overpowered Cards?


Is this a test to see if I remember what these cards do?
It's so annoying when people make it hard to provide feedback/help.


They give the numbers, which makes it easy for us to locate in the card in the rules(which the pdf is easily available online)


Oh yea, thanks angry
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Günter Bauer
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thanks for response, but we played right. After each camping I took 6 primary resources (activated x3), next action transformed to horses and canoes and finally could go ahead without taking care if its mountain or river. My only idea to avoid this combination is to go to village and discard the journeys diary.., but may be it could be only a problem in a 2P-Game and then you have to be lucky to get these out of 54. Anyway, we had much fun with this outstanding game...
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Günter Bauer
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Ok,sorry
Black Cat: take 2 primary resources
Old Toby: pay 1 canoe + 1 horse and go six ahead on river or in the mountains
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Andrew MacLeod
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finalfinger wrote:
...then you have to be lucky to get these out of 54. ...


That's what's key here! One can't base a strategy in L&C on card-combos that may or may not appear in any given game! Regardless, since one still needs to get the required resources for horses or canoes (and with canoes, it must be wood), I think the "killer" situation you're describing won't be seen very often.
 
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Juan Crespo
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I usually avoid rush judgement on these topics, but my first win against MacKensey was using this combo, in addition to another card that gave me 2 canoes at a time.

The kicker of the story is that I was playing wrong, handicapping myself by not remembering the rule that you can use cards from your hand to get discounted cards from the display!

Still, as long as individual cards are NOT overpowered by themselves, things should be fine. Interestingly in this forum there are several other cards that have been called "unbeatable" and "broken". To me that's an indication of powerful synergies, but not a smoking gun that the game is broken.
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Günter Bauer
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amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
...then you have to be lucky to get these out of 54. ...


That's what's key here! One can't base a strategy in L&C on card-combos that may or may not appear in any given game! Regardless, since one still needs to get the required resources for horses or canoes (and with canoes, it must be wood), I think the "killer" situation you're describing won't be seen very often.


you are right, and you have to get this combination early in the game, with my friend I will never get it anymore.
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Dan Blum
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finalfinger wrote:
thanks for response, but we played right. After each camping I took 6 primary resources (activated x3), next action transformed to horses and canoes and finally could go ahead without taking care if its mountain or river.


It's certainly a good combo but this is leaving out some crucial steps. You need a constant supply of Indians in order to get the horses and canoes, which means you have to take actions to get them. If your opponent(s) take them first, you will not be able to get them fast enough.

You also need some extra Indians to keep activating Black Cat x3 each time, unless you buy a 3-strength card at some point.
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Brian McCarty
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I'll not that in the files section there is also a quick guide for all the cards (though I need to update at least one typo)

There are definitely good combos.

Brian
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Jon Ben
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finalfinger wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
...then you have to be lucky to get these out of 54. ...


That's what's key here! One can't base a strategy in L&C on card-combos that may or may not appear in any given game! Regardless, since one still needs to get the required resources for horses or canoes (and with canoes, it must be wood), I think the "killer" situation you're describing won't be seen very often.


you are right, and you have to get this combination early in the game, with my friend I will never get it anymore.


There are lots of good combos in the game. In large part the game is about 'solving' the mountain problem. I would be inclined to ask what your opponent bought. It may be the case that they failed to recognize the importance of buying cards to form a movement engine leading to their failure. I certainly don't see the two cards you mentioned being particularly strong. There are better combos out there I think. I would argue that Black Cat with the card that gives 4 mountain movement for the cost of each primary resource is a better combo.

Unfortunately race games suffer from runaway leader/runaway trailer problems. L&C is no different. Often a winner or looser is obvious long before the game ends.

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Hardy
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finalfinger wrote:
Ok,sorry
Black Cat: take 2 primary resources
Old Toby: pay 1 canoe + 1 horse and go six ahead on river or in the mountains


Don't see how thise would be a strong combo without any further strong cards.

Six rexources will geht you just 1 horse + 1 canoe, and you'll need two turnes trading those in, and another turn getting new indians.
So altogether you'll have a 5 turn cyclus between camping in which you will move max. 6 spaces. This is not very good.
Or may you'll take 2 horses with teh 6 resources, than 2 more turnd to collect wood and get canoes. Thios will end up in a 6 turn cyclus, but you'll move 2 x 6 spaces then.


Much better is e.g. the combination of the card which let's you trade in 2 equipment for 1 horse, and the card which lets you move 3 spaces (water or mountain) for one horse:

1) collect 6 equipment (starting card)
2) trade in 3 horses
3) Move 9 spaces (3x3 spaces)

So that makes only 3 turns and 9 spaces (=18 spaces after 6 turns) compared to 6 turns and 12 spaces with your suggested combo...

Let me add also, that a guy who got this combo recently ended up in last place (because he needed to long to get that combo and get rid of other cards, so he started to move very late).
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Günter Bauer
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tool wrote:

You also need some extra Indians to keep activating Black Cat x3 each time, unless you buy a 3-strength card at some point.


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians. It seems that Black Cat is one of the strongest cards, no more lack of resources.., that´s fine!
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Andrew MacLeod
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finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.
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Juan Crespo
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finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.



You need to rearrange the first five cards by strength at the beginning of the game. No cheap cards for a few rounds unless you take the refresh action on the village and get lucky.
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Günter Bauer
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actaion wrote:



Much better is e.g. the combination of the card which let's you trade in 2 equipment for 1 horse, and the card which lets you move 3 spaces (water or mountain) for one horse:



of course your combo sounds better, but without cards like Black Cat is hard to get enough equipment, as far as I rememeber is there only one place in the village. Will see after more plays, up to now only one night, 5 times (2P)
 
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Günter Bauer
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amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.


Yes, but in the first round we used every time the interpreter, so the cards became cheaper very fast, and everybody is still lack of equipment and skins...
I want to play more,now! But now I have to watch Soccer Dortmund vs. Madrid, so thanks for your ideas and help!!
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Andrew MacLeod
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finalfinger wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.


Yes, but in the first round we used every time the interpreter, so the cards became cheaper very fast, and everybody is still lack of equipment and skins...
I want to play more,now! But now I have to watch Soccer Dortmund vs. Madrid, so thanks for your ideas and help!!


How could you play the Interpreter every time? He can't be played again until after you've set up Camp. Surely you weren't setting up Camp each and every turn?
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Brandon H
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amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.


Yes, but in the first round we used every time the interpreter, so the cards became cheaper very fast, and everybody is still lack of equipment and skins...
I want to play more,now! But now I have to watch Soccer Dortmund vs. Madrid, so thanks for your ideas and help!!


How could you play the Interpreter every time? He can't be played again until after you've set up Camp. Surely you weren't setting up Camp each and every turn?

Could be the Hang Back and Tech Up strategy.
 
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Tim Laster
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amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.


Yes, but in the first round we used every time the interpreter, so the cards became cheaper very fast, and everybody is still lack of equipment and skins...
I want to play more,now! But now I have to watch Soccer Dortmund vs. Madrid, so thanks for your ideas and help!!


How could you play the Interpreter every time? He can't be played again until after you've set up Camp. Surely you weren't setting up Camp each and every turn?


Yeah, I'm not sure how things can be moving so quickly at the start of the game. Even if we, lets say, pull mostly 3 strength cards at the start. The Indians places or cards played won't yield enough to get the stronger cards. The only way I could imagine it moving that quickly is if someone was incorrectly playing a card AND placing an Indian in a single turn.
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Brandon H
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ohverload wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:
amacleod wrote:
finalfinger wrote:


On the cheapest place I bought almost every 3-strength-card (at the beginning), so I didn´t depend on Indians.


I'm not sure I'm following you here: normally, 3-strength cards will be quite expensive at the start of the game.


Yes, but in the first round we used every time the interpreter, so the cards became cheaper very fast, and everybody is still lack of equipment and skins...
I want to play more,now! But now I have to watch Soccer Dortmund vs. Madrid, so thanks for your ideas and help!!


How could you play the Interpreter every time? He can't be played again until after you've set up Camp. Surely you weren't setting up Camp each and every turn?


Yeah, I'm not sure how things can be moving so quickly at the start of the game. Even if we, lets say, pull mostly 3 strength cards at the start. The Indians places or cards played won't yield enough to get the stronger cards. The only way I could imagine it moving that quickly is if someone was incorrectly playing a card AND placing an Indian in a single turn.

Well, like I said, if you're able to get Black Cat early, you can then use the Hang Back and Tech Up strategy. You could sit at the beginning of the river in a two-turn cycle, filling your boats with supplies with Black Cat, then calling a powwow to snatch up every Indian, followed by a camp and a purchase if you like the cards.
 
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Ryan Keane
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I don't really like Old Toby that much - particularly if you change the track with smaller river/mountain sections. You can only move river or mountain at one time, not both. So, when you hit the 2nd set of mountains (3 spaces), you are using a horse+canoe to only get to move the 3 spaces in the mountains - you have to stop at the river. So that really reduces your flexibility, as opposed to for example doing a 2 or 3 strength Commander with a combination of boats and horses.

I really like Black Cat + John Newman (1 food = 1 river or mountain space). If you can get another 2 card, and trim your hand to just 4 cards: a 2, a 2, John Newman, Black Cat (+1 Indian). Then you can just run a 2 turn engine of:
2 strength Black Cat for 3 food (no need for the 4th resource, since it will just eventually build up and lose you time)
2+1 strength John Newman + 3 food to move 3 spaces (river or mountains)
Camp
Or you can keep your Commander and a 1 card and every 3rd turn, use a 4th food to move 2 more river spaces (this won't work for the 1st stretch of mountains though).

This is the epitomy of solitaire - it doesn't care at all what other players are doing on the board or their face up cards. It just plods along averaging 1.5 spaces per turn.
 
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Jon Ben
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Ryan Keane wrote:
I don't really like Old Toby that much - particularly if you change the track with smaller river/mountain sections. You can only move river or mountain at one time, not both. So, when you hit the 2nd set of mountains (3 spaces), you are using a horse+canoe to only get to move the 3 spaces in the mountains - you have to stop at the river. So that really reduces your flexibility, as opposed to for example doing a 2 or 3 strength Commander with a combination of boats and horses.


I don't understand your point of view.

At strength 3 the Commander could spend 1 horse and 2 canoe for 2 mountain and 8 river movement. Or 2 horse and 1 canoe for 4 mountain and 4 river movement.
At strength 2 Old Toby could spend 2 horse and 2 canoe for 6 mountain and 6 river. Which is much more mountain movement than the Commander and only strength 2 is needed, granted you need to spend one more resource but that's part of the trade off.

If moving over 3 mountain spaces the Commander needs two horses, Old Toby needs only 1 horse and 1 canoe. Canoes are usually easier to get, and either way it's two non-basic resources.
 
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