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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » General

Subject: Forget Power Creep, we're at Power Warp rss

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Penguin Bonaparte
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First, I really really like the abilities and how much thematic sense they make for Voyager, the Borg, even the Kazon. That part of the design is really fun and I'm looking forward to playing with this stuff, but...

Holy hell! Looking at Voyager's stats, which is supposed to be a small quick ship after all, how does this even stack up against the debates over the Defiant and the rest? Why would you ever use a Reliant again, to say nothing of the poor Galaxy class sitting in mothballs.

As I understand it, part of the justification for the mixed timelines and all that was that these ships would still have their uses, but the sheer number of attack dice being thrown in this new wave makes it so that half of the fleets we've been collecting are obsolete. It's fine and makes good sense for some of them to go down quick and be hard to keep alive, but there's really no good reason to even bother with so many of these ships that are just going to be one-shotted out of the sky, especially now that Barrage of Fire attack levels are going to be so much more common. Even cloaking might not be a great help.

If the dice values were kept more under control there would be room for clever maneuvers and strategies to really make a difference, but that's only something that ever seems to come up in my games after half the fleets have already been blown up and the game decided in many cases. So looking at all the cards I'm very very excited, but then seeing the numbers next to them I feel like the game might as well be grabbing as many dice as you can and just throwing them at your opponent's face until you rupture his eyeball and he falls over spurting blood and humors all over the board. Well, not exactly, but, yeah....
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Xander Fulton
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Even cloaking might not be a great help.


Maybe the Scimitar will bring with it an 'advanced cloaking upgrade'? Tech slot upgrade: "When defending while cloaked, your ship rolls 3 extra defense dice, and may convert one blank result to an [evade]" for 7 points or something like that?

Otherwise, yeah, the built-in cloaking devices are quickly losing value in this wave (cloaking UPGRADES, on the other hand - Federation and Borg ships do so love that cloak...)
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Quotes from memory alpha about the intrepid class

'At the time of its introduction, the Intrepid-class was considered to be the most technologically advanced out of all Starfleet's starship classes, though it would be superseded in that regard the following year by the Sovereign-class.'

'The shields of Intrepid-class vessels were superior to earlier designs.
They included multiphasic and multi-spectrum shielding.'

'The Intrepid-class model only has thirteen discernible phaser arrays, with the large array strips being the same type-10 phaser arrays used by Galaxy-class starships, according to Rick Sternbach.'

'At less than half the size of a Galaxy-class starship, it was considered "quick and smart." '

Reading these together justify the 4 attack, 2 evade, 4 hull and 5 shields the ship received. It also justifies it being 30 versus the Galaxy class at 28. Its not power creep, its being real to the show.

---

Everything in this wave that is more powerful is more expensive, it will all balance itself out.
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I think you're jumping to conclusions before we even have these ships in our hands.

And Voyager's not really that much bigger than expected. It would have been surprising if it were less than a 26 (likely at the expense of hull and/or shield).
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Yeah, the point cost there helps with Voyager, but still. Things like "superior" are awfully vague. With regard to hull and shields, particularly with small fast ships, words like light and efficient spring to mind. There are a lot of other things besides overall capacity.
 
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Xander Fulton
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jmdt784 wrote:
'At the time of its introduction, the Intrepid-class was considered to be the most technologically advanced out of all Starfleet's starship classes, though it would be superseded in that regard the following year by the Sovereign-class.'


A modern drone is 'more technologically advanced' than a P-51. Guess which one would win every dogfight between the two? Hint: it's the one with a human in it.

"Technological advancement" has nothing to do with combat capabilities unless it's paired with specific design to that effect. Voyager was designed as an exploration ship. The Galaxy-class were designed to be fleet flagships (IE., lead fleets of ships into battle if necessary).

jmdt784 wrote:
'The shields of Intrepid-class vessels were superior to earlier designs.
They included multiphasic and multi-spectrum shielding.'


"Superior" does not mean "more". Could well mean 'same effect for half the size' or 'half as capable for 1/10 the power use', etc.

jmdt784 wrote:
'The Intrepid-class model only has thirteen discernible phaser arrays, with the large array strips being the same type-10 phaser arrays used by Galaxy-class starships, according to Rick Sternbach.'


And we've had that discussion before - any energy-based weapon cares very little about its emitter, it cares about the power plant behind the emitter. The emitter just determines where the thing can AIM.

jmdt784 wrote:
'At less than half the size of a Galaxy-class starship, it was considered "quick and smart." '


'Quick and smart'? Yeah, those are EXACTLY the words I'd use to describe something 'packing as big a punch and with better defense'...or, wait, no...actually, the exact opposite.

jmdt784 wrote:
Reading these together justify the 4 attack, 2 evade, 4 hull and 5 shields the ship received. It also justifies it being 30 versus the Galaxy class at 28. Its not power creep, its being real to the show.


Not even close - I could see it maybe, maybe being a 26 point ship, given it's so new and cutting edge. But it's just too small to be 28 points, nevermind 30.

This ship is rampant fanboyism writ large, the "USS Mary Sue".
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Keoki Young
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While I'm excited to get these new ships, the obvious power creep is alarming. Compare, for example, a generic Borg sphere (SP 38) to a generic Jem'Hadar battleship (SP 34). The sphere is 4 SP more expensive, reflected by its two extra shield points. Otherwise, the ships' primary values are the same. Everything else being equal, they'd seem balanced. However, everything else is not equal. The battleship's greatest disadvantage, its difficulty keeping targets in its firing arc, isn't a problem at all for the sphere, which can shoot anywhere. In a one-on-one, the sphere could easily avoid the battleship's arc while still shooting at it, and could even regenerate its own damage in the meantime. Unless a scenario requires it, I no longer see any reason at all to field a battleship instead of a sphere.

The game seems to be transforming from the Klingon-Romulan Wars to the Borg-Species 8472 Wars. If this power creep continues, I wonder what the Enterprise-E will be like?
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Bob Dole
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keokiyoung wrote:

The game seems to be transforming from the Klingon-Romulan Wars to the Borg-Species 8472 Wars. If this power creep continues, I wonder what the Enterprise-E will be like?



The 360-firing arc makes cloaking moot, since you're no longer able to sensor echo out of your opponent's firing arc. On top of that, Feedback Pulse makes cloaking downright dangerous, since you can't roll defense dice against that damage which is going straight to your hull.

It looks to me, too, like the Klingon-Romulan wars are over.

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Mike McDonald
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Yes to all this. And the Scimitar better be freaking amazing.
 
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Keoki Young
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XanderF wrote:
The Galaxy-class were designed to be fleet flagships (IE., lead fleets of ships into battle if necessary).


The TNG Technical Manual calls the Galaxy class an Explorer. It wasn't necessarily designed for war, though the Enterprise-D was the flagship, presumably because it happened to be the best suited ship for battle in Starfleet at the time, as well as having one of the most experienced captains.

I agree with you that the Intrepid class, overall, should not be superior to the flagship. One wonders, then, why an Intrepid-class ship wasn't named the flagship after its shakedown cruise. Since Starfleet was doubtlessly already working on the Sovereign class, maybe they were waiting to make that the flagship.

Personally, I was expecting Voyager to be 28 SP with the same number of shields as the Galaxy. I completely agree with Janeway's Captain Skill, though - I may not like the character, but she did consistently beat the Borg, after all.
 
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charles skrobis
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I see what you mean about ships being left behind. (Honestly can't remember the last time someone used the Reliant or the TOS enterprise against me.) I Know I like to take out the cards nobody using and take them for a go every once in a while. Most of them are actually pretty good, be compared to the first stringers everyone uses, people like Sisko just don't compare to Piccard in the least, with maybe a few scenario games that keep him in the loop.

I do wish things weren't heading towards Dreadnoughts and hero ships for the fleets people tend towards for OP events these day, but I suppose that just makes it all the more unexpected when I use them.

As for power creep, it's not too bad. The biggest thing everyone seems to forget so quickly about stuff like this is the cost in the bottom right corner. So while transphasic torpedoes look crazy, that's a 10 point discard that only voyager can use. To then outfit it with a good captain, maybe a flagship for the actions, and some crew and tech to buff attack and/or defenses, as well as maybe a cheat death to keep it going. Before you know it, this is a 75+ point ship that now has to stand up to a 3 ship klingon and such. So the thing that balances that out a bit, is that it can't fire transphasic opening round on the cloaked ships, but assuming it can somehow 1 shot one of them, the other 2 can potentially wipe out it's health and take a cheat death down. If it takes another one with Transphasic, the last ship can finish it or take the last cheat death. So it still comes down to who can shoot the hardest by that point.

It's actually a little hard to fully gage these ships without playtesting them, but from what I've seen, they're not as crazy as everyone is making them out to be. (Proxy played a couple of Species 8472 ship, managed to beat 1 ship of a 3 ship build in the best match they had. They are not easy to run, and don't nearly have as much as they need to swing with, though they aren't unplayable by any mean, and are really fun. They're just overblown right now with nothing but pictures to look at.)
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Xander Fulton
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keokiyoung wrote:
I agree with you that the Intrepid class, overall, should not be superior to the flagship. One wonders, then, why an Intrepid-class ship wasn't named the flagship after its shakedown cruise. Since Starfleet was doubtlessly already working on the Sovereign class, maybe they were waiting to make that the flagship.


The question is - if the ship was such a capable combatant...equal or superior to the Galaxy-class in every way...why did we see none during the Dominion War? They certainly existed in the period - Voyager, herself, visited DS9 the year before the war broke out. The Bellerophon was at the station to ferry Bashir to Romulus a year or so into the war.

Yet, not a single Intrepid-class was ever seen in combat during the Dominion War, while we definitely saw a NUMBER of Galaxy-class ships. (The Sovereign-class gets a bit of a pass, as they were only just entering service during the war - the Enterprise-E still in shakedown during the first year of the war - but the Intrepids were already out and in front-line service well before then.)

So...makes no sense, IMHO.
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Roy Stephens
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XanderF wrote:
jmdt784 wrote:
'At the time of its introduction, the Intrepid-class was considered to be the most technologically advanced out of all Starfleet's starship classes, though it would be superseded in that regard the following year by the Sovereign-class.'


A modern drone is 'more technologically advanced' than a P-51. Guess which one would win every dogfight between the two? Hint: it's the one with a human in it.

"Technological advancement" has nothing to do with combat capabilities unless it's paired with specific design to that effect. Voyager was designed as an exploration ship. The Galaxy-class were designed to be fleet flagships (IE., lead fleets of ships into battle if necessary).

jmdt784 wrote:
'The shields of Intrepid-class vessels were superior to earlier designs.
They included multiphasic and multi-spectrum shielding.'


"Superior" does not mean "more". Could well mean 'same effect for half the size' or 'half as capable for 1/10 the power use', etc.

jmdt784 wrote:
'The Intrepid-class model only has thirteen discernible phaser arrays, with the large array strips being the same type-10 phaser arrays used by Galaxy-class starships, according to Rick Sternbach.'


And we've had that discussion before - any energy-based weapon cares very little about its emitter, it cares about the power plant behind the emitter. The emitter just determines where the thing can AIM.

jmdt784 wrote:
'At less than half the size of a Galaxy-class starship, it was considered "quick and smart." '


'Quick and smart'? Yeah, those are EXACTLY the words I'd use to describe something 'packing as big a punch and with better defense'...or, wait, no...actually, the exact opposite.

jmdt784 wrote:
Reading these together justify the 4 attack, 2 evade, 4 hull and 5 shields the ship received. It also justifies it being 30 versus the Galaxy class at 28. Its not power creep, its being real to the show.


Not even close - I could see it maybe, maybe being a 26 point ship, given it's so new and cutting edge. But it's just too small to be 28 points, nevermind 30.

This ship is rampant fanboyism writ large, the "USS Mary Sue".


Nah, the Mary Sue was always the Defiant.

But...

While I agree with you wholeheartedly in regards to the Intrepid class as compared to the Galaxy class, you have to keep in mind that (1) The named Voyager that is being used in this game is the one that came home after 7 years in the Delta Quadrant. It had been modified heavily with both Borg AND future Federation technology, expressly to survive flying through a Borg hornets' nest. (2) In game terms, these upgrades are available in order to answer to the higher damage output from Borg ships in this (and future) waves. I think we are going to see the meta shift away from 3 ship alpha strike fleets to either 1 or 2 ship power builds, or, swarms of cheapies (to overwhelm the 1 ship power builds with numbers).

I wouldn't be surprised to see the OP fleet build rules jump up to 125 or 150 point maximums sometime during the 1st or 2nd half of The Collective...
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Keoki Young
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XanderF wrote:
keokiyoung wrote:
I agree with you that the Intrepid class, overall, should not be superior to the flagship. One wonders, then, why an Intrepid-class ship wasn't named the flagship after its shakedown cruise. Since Starfleet was doubtlessly already working on the Sovereign class, maybe they were waiting to make that the flagship.


The question is - if the ship was such a capable combatant...equal or superior to the Galaxy-class in every way...why did we see none during the Dominion War? They certainly existed in the period - Voyager, herself, visited DS9 the year before the war broke out. The Bellerophon was at the station to ferry Bashir to Romulus a year or so into the war.

Yet, not a single Intrepid-class was ever seen in combat during the Dominion War, while we definitely saw a NUMBER of Galaxy-class ships. (The Sovereign-class gets a bit of a pass, as they were only just entering service during the war - the Enterprise-E still in shakedown during the first year of the war - but the Intrepids were already out and in front-line service well before then.)

So...makes no sense, IMHO.


The real-life reason no Intrepid class was seen in the Dominion War is because VOY was running concurrently, and the DS9 showrunners didn't want viewers to get confused. The only reason the Bellerophon shows up is because they needed a Federation ship as a transport for that episode and the Voyager sets were already up next door. They could've used the standing Defiant sets, but a tiny Defiant-class ship doesn't make much sense as a transport.

Like you, however, I'd have liked to see the Intrepid class represented in the Dominion War.
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Nova Cat
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XanderF wrote:
The question is - if the ship was such a capable combatant...equal or superior to the Galaxy-class in every way...why did we see none during the Dominion War?

There are any number of reasons why this might be. During a war, particularly one as long as bloody as the Dominion War, you want to build EFFICIENT ships, not necessary the BEST ships possible. It might be cheaper to build a fleet of Miranda-class ships than a single Intrepid-class, so it makes more sense to build the fleet.

Also Intrepid-class was very new during the war, so Starfleet didn't have hundreds of them already built like they did for other classes of ships.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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With that special ability though, why not, please Andrew if you're listening, please give the generic Galaxy some sort of 360 thing and just change the Enterprise D's special ability. Sell it as a refit card pack. Or new models. Or anything. Please.

As for Voyager, I hate to say it, but Star Trek Online got it right as a fast plucky science vessel. The upgrades are all fine and good, and those transphasic torpedoes with their discard aren't the worst thing although they will one-shot some ships. It's the base level stats and attack/defense breakdown that really makes it tough. A generic galaxy is probably the least used ship in the game, but give it the ability to turn like with these and suddenly 4 attack starts to look pretty good. The 2/3 attack ships, unless they do something crazy, are much less viable.
 
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The Jigsaw Man
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XanderF wrote:

"Technological advancement" has nothing to do with combat capabilities unless it's paired with specific design to that effect. Voyager was designed as an exploration ship. The Galaxy-class were designed to be fleet flagships (IE., lead fleets of ships into battle if necessary).



Galaxy-class was never designed as a "flagship." It was designed for exploration. No ship designed to "lead fleets of ships into battle" would keep families on board.

Secondly, even if we were to accept your argument, a flagship doesn't need to have the biggest guns, and the best shields. It needs the best sensors, and some damn good communication links, and the ability to display information for the admiral. (or whoever is coordinating the battle)
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Allen Gould
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hockeyjedi wrote:
I think we are going to see the meta shift away from 3 ship alpha strike fleets to either 1 or 2 ship power builds, or, swarms of cheapies (to overwhelm the 1 ship power builds with numbers).


Which is still bad news for the ships from the first two waves - anything under 30 points is going to be hard-pressed to see play in the brave new world of monster warships.

Now, the stats are all paid for (stats x2 = cost), so I don't know if we can point the finger there for creep. To my mind it's that there's no cost for getting better arcs or more upgrade slots. (Or better gametext, but that's a lot fuzzier). 4Div vs Sphere is really the kicker. Sure, you pay 4 points for two more shields. But you also get a 360 forward arc, *and* a vastly superior movement dial. (I'm having trouble finding any situation where being able to just rook around the board is inferior to turning. Give the 4Div that dial and it would vastly improve as a ship.)

I'm not sure what's a scarier thought - that all the ships were tested together, and we're just happening to see the high point on the power curve now (meaning that everything else is going to be weaker than this), or that there's still bigger ships to come (meaning the first wave stuff is going to go further into the binder.)
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Joel Stair
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The Borg are good very good i play tested them last night after i printed out the cards my brother and i played he play 3 ship klingon build with BOF on 2 ships he was able to use 1 and i killed off 2 ships and he finished me off before my time to fire and i healed 3 hull damage also
 
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Keoki Young
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anyGould wrote:
I'm not sure what's a scarier thought - that all the ships were tested together, and we're just happening to see the high point on the power curve now (meaning that everything else is going to be weaker than this), or that there's still bigger ships to come (meaning the first wave stuff is going to go further into the binder.)


There's at least one bigger ship to come - the tactical cube will probably be a beast.
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Brook Gentlestream
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It bothers me that when people talk about the Galaxy-class ship, they always refer to the twelve ships built around 2363. This seems to be what the USS Enterprise in the game represents, the USS Enterprise at about the beginning of TNG.

The USS Enterprise of 2370 has had several refits, and there's no reason to assume that as the flagship of the fleet, it wouldn't be upgraded with the latest technology as it became available. We know that the ship was built with a modular structure to allow for different types of upgrades. We know that the ship has gone back to starbases several times over the course of the show. We know that in terms of weaponry, defensive capability, warp speed, and "energy conversion rates", it has been able to keep up to par with other ships of its time.

During its adventures, the USS Enterprise has also used cloaking technology, catapulted across the galaxy, and had its deflector dish refitted into weaponry, yet none of these upgrades are reflected in its upgrade options. The ship is the USS Enterprise as it was hot off the assembly line nearly six years before Voyager got lost in the Delta Quadrant or the Dominion War started.

Meanwhile, not only is Voyager built in this game as a ship six years ahead of the Enterprise rather than being compared with the Enterprise of the same year, but instead its also got stats and upgrades of a ship after years of adventures in the Delta Quadrant!

So we are comparing a seasoned veteran ship, to one just newly constructed almost a dozen years before!
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XanderF wrote:
The question is - if the ship was such a capable combatant...equal or superior to the Galaxy-class in every way...why did we see none during the Dominion War? They certainly existed in the period - Voyager, herself, visited DS9 the year before the war broke out. The Bellerophon was at the station to ferry Bashir to Romulus a year or so into the war.

Yet, not a single Intrepid-class was ever seen in combat during the Dominion War, while we definitely saw a NUMBER of Galaxy-class ships. (The Sovereign-class gets a bit of a pass, as they were only just entering service during the war - the Enterprise-E still in shakedown during the first year of the war - but the Intrepids were already out and in front-line service well before then.)

So...makes no sense, IMHO.


Its simply because they tried not to cross the signature ships of each series too much. You'll also notice that they never show a Sovereign-class ship in all of DS9, and you could argue that same logic that it should be in the Dominion War battles. In-universe you can probably just assume they were there. Or maybe they did hold those vessels back because they were the most advanced and it smallest supply. Doesn't really matter.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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I disagree with essentially the entirety of this this thread.

When looking at the new cards, yeah there are ships that have more stats than ones we've seen before and there are also crazy powerful upgrades, but they all cost an amount equal to their relative power.

IF power creep were indeed true, then current good ships and upgrades would be obsolete in the face of what we are seeing. Lets back up a second and look at what we still have:

Klingons
The Klingons still have the Vor'Cha and the Negh'Var with high hull, attack, and defense totals along with many ways to make them hit VERY hard. What's nice is their point totals allow for 3 of them along with captains and upgrades to flavor. If you really look at the math, a well built and flown 3 ship klingon list would have a very good chance against the Borg or 8462 1 or 2 ship lists, the same way they are currently strong against many comers. Big firepower is still big firepower and the odds of killing these ships in 1 shot is VERY low.

The Projected Stasis Field is poised to take off as another potential fleet option to combat these heavies. It just needs the right meta to be a monster and we are poised for that meta soon. The D7 swarm has always been situationally strong, but now that we expect fewer and fewer cloakers, these lists could come into their own, dropping crazy dice totals and ultimately winning an attrition war.

Dominion
People diss the battleship, but unlike the other 6 dice ships, it has multiple crew slots and more importantly BS on the bar. Along with the vast bevy of upgrades in faction, the battleship and Keldon can both hit bloody hard. Thanks to the strength of the Keldon, 2, 3, and 4 ship Dominion builds will all be viable that will be able to both fight the Borg and also do well against other builds.

I especially think 4 ship builds with combinations of galors, hidekis, and keldons will become a new go to build for the dominion, atleast until the battlecruiser comes out. A build with 3 Keldons and hideki's throws 21 dice with points left for upgrades and has enough toughness to withstand a few hits from the 6 dice weapons.

Federation
Voyager in no way obsoletes the D. They both have a set of strengths and weaknesses that must be assessed versus the build goals. Getting an Aux token each round and no reverse must be weighed against red turns and reverse. The excelsior will still be a great mid-size weapons platform, the defiant will still be used as a maneuverable platform. If anything the Federation has many more options to fill out their 2 ship lists that will continue to be strong, even in the face of new, bigger threats. We'll have to see how it plays out, but they definitely got a strong new ship, a solid captain that is potentially their new second best and several new options.

I very much disagree that the Miranda class will be mothballed. I actually expect them to take off in this new meta. A generic Miranda with QT's is 24 points, 4 are 96 points leaving 4 points for whatever upgrades one deems necessary (Colonel Kira?) and giving potential for 24 dice on the attack.

Things like the Constitution Enterprise will see love thanks to Janeway. I totally intend to find out just how many Aux tokens I can stick on that ship during a game, lol. Chekov has always been looked over, but now that Aux tokens are becoming more of an every turn thing (I imagine moreso as the game progresses forward), his stock just went up. It the same situation as Chang; he was considered terrible until the meta changed around and people found a use for him.

Romulans
360 arcs do indeed hurt the Romulan game a bit as it weakens sensor echo, but then again they have toys like Varel and interphase generator to shrugg of hits and have ships that are also otherwise difficult to kill. The Valdore and Khazara are still quite potent birds that can do lots of damage. Cloaked mines are still a thing and will still be irritating toward the new bigs. The borg will often have to plow through the minefield or take several turns getting where they wanted to go. With no scan enhancers in the Borg or 8472, I don't see them taking that action very often. I've put a chunk of damage on the battleship with mines before and the Borg and 8472 will be no different in this regard. 3 Valdores with TO's, 1 with Donatra would shoot enough dice with quality to make almost anything hurt

---

Ultimately, I'm seeing a lot of builds that currently work still working as is or with minor modifications, and I'm also seeing the meta allowing new builds with preexisting cards/ship to come into play. If we really had power creep, then there is no way that I could be talking about the strength of fleets with all these older, some even wave 0, pieces. Attack wing has always been a balanced game, and I honestly think this wave will help to balance it more and make a higher % of ships/upgrades playable at the highest level. Every ship is playable, they just need the correct role and strategy to shine.

What we definitely see is a big change in the meta in the upcoming weeks as the Borg and 8472 are introduced and people learn their strengths and weaknesses and start adapting. I look forward to it.
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XanderF wrote:
keokiyoung wrote:
I agree with you that the Intrepid class, overall, should not be superior to the flagship. One wonders, then, why an Intrepid-class ship wasn't named the flagship after its shakedown cruise. Since Starfleet was doubtlessly already working on the Sovereign class, maybe they were waiting to make that the flagship.


The question is - if the ship was such a capable combatant...equal or superior to the Galaxy-class in every way...why did we see none during the Dominion War? They certainly existed in the period - Voyager, herself, visited DS9 the year before the war broke out. The Bellerophon was at the station to ferry Bashir to Romulus a year or so into the war.

Yet, not a single Intrepid-class was ever seen in combat during the Dominion War, while we definitely saw a NUMBER of Galaxy-class ships. (The Sovereign-class gets a bit of a pass, as they were only just entering service during the war - the Enterprise-E still in shakedown during the first year of the war - but the Intrepids were already out and in front-line service well before then.)

So...makes no sense, IMHO.


First of all, there is more to the Star Trek universe than what you see here or saw in the television series!! All of the lore of this universe cannot be wholly broken down to four stats in a miniatures game!

The Enterprise D remained the flagship probably because A) It is more capable of a wider array of missions, and B) Its got the most awesome, veteran crew in the Star Fleet!

Keep in mind that we now have ships spanning decades of technological advances. If comparing the Enterprise D to Voyager is upsetting, then stick to era specific fleet battles and leave the comparisons alone. This game is meant to be highly customizable and is one of its biggest draws! The designers have done a superb job balancing the game against the ST universe! It's not power creep, it's all keeping to theme.

What are you going to say when the Enterprise E comes out as a 5/1/5/5 at 32 SP (my prediction)? You should say "That totally replaces the Ent D!". From Picard: "Plenty of letters left in the alphabet."
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Jesse Catron
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I think a big problem is the simplistic formula for costing the ships.

Its very obvious that a point of hull doesn't have the same gameplay value as a point of shields nor the same value as an attack dice (especially since attack and defense values are used every turn while shield and hull are usually one time uses). On top of that there is no consideration of firing arcs, maneuver dials, special powers nor crew, tech and weapon slots in the costing of the ships. If the "newer" and more advanced ships in the Star Trek timeline had their technological advantage baked into the cost (or the older ships getting a cost discount), then the power creep (real or perceived) would be more palatable and the old technology ships would be more likely to remain viable. You could say they tried somewhat by giving some of the less powerful or less maneuverable ships wider firing arcs but the new ships have thrown that out the window with Voyager and the Sphere having powerful 360 arcs and the Bioship's vast maneuver superiority over the Battleship.
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