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Subject: Entry fee to other players buildings. rss

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Denizen M
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I am pretty sure that we have been playing this correctly...

To enter another players building which costs food, when you don't have any food to give but you do have gold. We play that you first change your gold for a food item, and then give the player that food item.

And if it costs 2 or 3 food to use the building, I always change the money for smoked fish or meat, rather than multiple fish (so that they may potentially lose food by being short changed at a later time).


The rules aren't so specific about this, so I bet some people are just paying gold instead. Which I think is wrong.
Anyone want to back me up on this?
 
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Jon
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sneakyninja7nz wrote:
I am pretty sure that we have been playing this correctly...

To enter another players building which costs food, when you don't have any food to give but you do have gold. We play that you first change your gold for a food item, and then give the player that food item.


No, this is wrong. You can use money to pay a food cost, but you don't convert with the bank or anything. Simply pay in francs.




Quote:
And if it costs 2 or 3 food to use the building, I always change the money for smoked fish or meat, rather than multiple fish (so that they may potentially lose food by being short changed at a later time).


The rules aren't so specific about this, so I bet some people are just paying gold instead. Which I think is wrong.
Anyone want to back me up on this?


No, I have to inform you that you are wrong. Sorry.
FWIW, the actual rules work just fine. You've inadvertantly created a variant, but try the actual rules. laugh
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TonyKR
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Yup, have to agree with Jon on this one. The English rules are incredibly clear on this (it's even noted in a callout box on page 5, bolding included):

Quote:
Note: In this game, Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs.
Francs can, however, never be replaced with food.


EDIT: Also, right next to that is an example, which reinforces what was just called out.

Quote:
Example: John uses the Shipping Line, which requires 2 food as the entry fee. Instead of the 2 food, he may pay either 2 Francs or 1 Franc and 1 food. If he owns the Shipping Line, he does not pay an entry fee.
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Gillum the Stoor
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Re: Entry fee to other players buildings
Quote:
Note: In this game, Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs.
Francs can, however, never be replaced with food.

What this really means is the following.

Whenever you are required to pay food - either for an entry fee or during the Feeding phase - you may always pay Francs for any or all food that must be paid.

You are replacing the required food with Francs. You aren't exchanging the Francs for any kind of food. You just pay with Francs instead of food. You don't ever convert the Francs to food.

If you pay another player with food, you can indeed give it to her as meat or smoked fish if you like. Take care, though: these each count as a single good for use of the Shipping Line, so giving them to your opponent (instead of fish) may make it easier for her to make money shipping (seems unlikely, though, since you probably don't want to be shipping food at all).

If you are required to pay Francs to perform an action - as an entry fee, to pay interest, or to buy a building - you must use Francs to perform that action. You can never convert any kind of food to Francs. If it's an action that you must take (e.g., paying interest) and you don't have the Francs required for the first two, you must take a loan; for the third, you don't get to buy the building otherwise (e.g., buying or entering a building), you simply can't perform the action if you can't pay the Francs.

Edit: made corrections to last paragraph.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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gillum wrote:
If you are required to pay Francs - as an entry fee, to pay interest, or to buy a building - you must use Francs. You can never convert any kind of food to Francs. If you don't have the Francs required for the first two, you must take a loan; for the third, you don't get to buy the building.


Actually, this isn't quite right either: you may not take loans when short on the entry fee.
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TonyKR
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Ponton wrote:
gillum wrote:
If you are required to pay Francs - as an entry fee, to pay interest, or to buy a building - you must use Francs. You can never convert any kind of food to Francs. If you don't have the Francs required for the first two, you must take a loan; for the third, you don't get to buy the building.


Actually, this isn't quite right either: you may not take loans when short on the entry fee.


Agreed. There are only two times that loans can be taken: when you can't afford to pay the interest on a previous loan or when you can't afford the required food at the end of a round. This is made explicitly clear on p10, again with sidebar examples reinforcing what is said.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Pugnax555 wrote:
Ponton wrote:
gillum wrote:
If you are required to pay Francs - as an entry fee, to pay interest, or to buy a building - you must use Francs. You can never convert any kind of food to Francs. If you don't have the Francs required for the first two, you must take a loan; for the third, you don't get to buy the building.


Actually, this isn't quite right either: you may not take loans when short on the entry fee.


Agreed. There are only two times that loans can be taken: when you can't afford to pay the interest on a previous loan or when you can't afford the required food at the end of a round. This is made explicitly clear on p10, again with sidebar examples reinforcing what is said.


There is more, actually. If the Dive Bar (I think it is one of the promo items) is in play, you can be forced to pay as well.
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Gillum the Stoor
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Ponton wrote:
gillum wrote:
If you are required to pay Francs - as an entry fee, to pay interest, or to buy a building - you must use Francs. You can never convert any kind of food to Francs. If you don't have the Francs required for the first two, you must take a loan; for the third, you don't get to buy the building.


Actually, this isn't quite right either: you may not take loans when short on the entry fee.

Yes, that's right - I responded too quickly.

Of the items I mentioned, you can take loans only for paying interest and for feeding. If you don't have enough food in the feeding phase, you must pay the difference in Francs. If you don't have enough Francs to do so, you must take a loan.

You take a loan only when you have no choice but to spend some number of Francs - and you don't have enough.
 
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Denizen M
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Pugnax555 wrote:



Quote:
Example: John uses the Shipping Line, which requires 2 food as the entry fee. Instead of the 2 food, he may pay either 2 Francs or 1 Franc and 1 food. If he owns the Shipping Line, he does not pay an entry fee.



Thanks Pugnax555 for pointing that out.
When I re-read the instructions I managed to miss the example there.
 
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TonyKR
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No problem and no worries. I often miss stuff like that when they stick it in a sidebar. I usually only catch them on subsequent readthroughs of the rules (yes, I like reading rules, multiple times even :-p).
 
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Denizen M
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And thanks to the other respondents too.

It seems that we haven't been playing wrong, just in a slightly unfriendly manner.

Though I can't see why you would ever want to pay an opponent with gold, when you can change it to food first, so that you aren't helping them to pay interest or buy a building or use a building that they otherwise couldn't afford. (Apart from near the end of the game when they may ship something.)
Maybe I am just too competitive by nature.

..

.((Also I note that smoked fish is worth less than bread when shipping, so if you are paying 2 food, giving smoked fish could be less beneficial to opponents than bread. ))
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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sneakyninja7nz wrote:
I can't see why you would ever want to pay an opponent with gold, when you can change it to food first, so that you aren't helping them to pay interest or buy a building or use a building that they otherwise couldn't afford.

You are not allowed to change Francs to any food to pay another player an entry fee that requires food.

If you don't have enough food for the entry fee (or even if you do), you may make up for food with Francs. But you must give her Francs then. You cannot give an opponent food that you don't already have, and you can't "buy" food with Francs.
 
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Denizen M
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Okay. I see now that I was wrong, as there is never any mention in the rules of the words "buy/sell", "trade/swap". And in the example the player pays with what he/she has available.
.
But I am sure I could be forgiven for reading
"Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs. Francs can, however, never be replaced with food."
and taking that to mean that you can buy food, but you can't sell your food.
.
It is probably more clear to Germans in the German version rules.
.
.
I am looking forward to playing it properly. Though I must admit that the game does play okay how we have been playing.
 
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Throknor
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louper wrote:
sneakyninja7nz wrote:
But I am sure I could be forgiven...


Of course you can be forgiven! I forgive you.

And I agree - the rules could be clearer. (There is an example in the sidebar which details a situation in which someone may substitute francs in place of food and, as you point out, there's really no reason, if it was an actual swap, that you would EVER pay with francs.)

Enjoy the game!

Sure there is. All your food tokens are 3 or more, you have exactly how much food you'll need, you have plenty of francs, the action isn't giving you more food (and may give you francs), it's the last action of the round, and you need to pay 1 food. If you overpay three food for one food and end up short three food you'd need to use three francs later to make up for it - better to just use one franc up front.

Situational? Of course. I'm just countering the "no reason... EVER" part; I'm not saying it always makes sense.
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Jack Smith
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sneakyninja7nz wrote:
Okay. I see now that I was wrong, as there is never any mention in the rules of the words "buy/sell", "trade/swap". And in the example the player pays with what he/she has available.
.
But I am sure I could be forgiven for reading
"Food can always be replaced 1:1 with Francs. Francs can, however, never be replaced with food."
and taking that to mean that you can buy food, but you can't sell your food.
.
It is probably more clear to Germans in the German version rules.
.
.
I am looking forward to playing it properly. Though I must admit that the game does play okay how we have been playing.


We were unsure about that too as it's possible to interpret the rule as buying food rather than replacing food. But we concluded you had to pay the actual Francs as to do otherwise would be very confusing and there were no rules to cover it anyway.

The problem with English is that it's flexibility is at the cost of precision. So I find many German translations have issues.
 
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