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Subject: Refilling when using all cards rss

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Paulo Santoro
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I like to use all the cards when playing (basic + advanced + expert). However this can lead to weird boards, with a lot of some type of cards and lacking other types.

This issue was noted by many people. The designer himself, in the rulebook, suggests to "construct the decks for each age by starting with the base cards an then exchange some base cards with advanced and/or expert cards of the same type". Well, this is boring to do. It increases set up and set down a lot. So, after some simulations and one play, I'm doing this.

Mix all the cards of the same age. Then use the routine below when refilling board, according the number of players:

3 players

Whenever you draw the 5th blue card or the 3rd card of any other type, discard it and draw another. You do not count the cards already in the board from previous round (so you can have 3 colonies, for example, if you had one before).

4 players

Whenever you draw the 6th blue card or the 4th card of any other type, discard it and draw another. You do count the cards already in the board from previous round (so you won't ever have 4 colonies or 4 wars available, for example).

This way we won't waste a lot of time during setup (and set down!), refilling is almost the same and card swings are still there, but with no excesses.

I've just tried this routine yesterday. We were 3 players.

It was great! Variability was still there: in one round, for example, no war was available. This should be possible, and it is. But we could enjoy cards of all levels, always with a lot of options. It was much better than my play with only basic cards, and than my play with all cards mixed but with no routine when refilling.

I hope you try, enjoy and, please, report!
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Scott Moore
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An interesting idea. I agree that constructing decks in advance seems like a lot of work, so your suggestion is one that I may well try in future.
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Brice Coullaut
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One objection at this brilliant idea is all players have to accept to know the discarded progress cards. For the B phase it is not very problematic but in phase A you know what do not sort out in the next phase at the same Age. Not very important but change the rules a little bit, especially if you are build a specific cards strategy ...

However, you can mitigate the variance without take down the fluidity of the game.

I'll try it for my solo game


edit : It works well in solo mode !!!

I'd try this one :

3 blue max and 2 max for other progress cards type (62 vp for my first try of this variant and the pleasure still there, one word : AWESOME ! thanks )
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Pedro Vaquero
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Nice idea. I will try at home in a 4 player game.

In my introductory games I do something similar... I allways played with all the cards, and discarding some when a lot of the same kind were present in the board...
 
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Pedro Vaquero
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Parian wrote:
One objection at this brilliant idea is all players have to accept to know the discarded progress cards. For the B phase it is not very problematic but in phase A you know what do not sort out in the next phase at the same Age. Not very important but change the rules a little bit, especially if you are build a specific cards strategy ...


Reading this variant I was thinking on put bellow the deck the discarded card in the phase A refill and shuffle the deck again previously to the phase B board refill...
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Brice Coullaut
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Ikarus wrote:
Parian wrote:
One objection at this brilliant idea is all players have to accept to know the discarded progress cards. For the B phase it is not very problematic but in phase A you know what do not sort out in the next phase at the same Age. Not very important but change the rules a little bit, especially if you are build a specific cards strategy ...


Reading this variant I was thinking on put bellow the deck the discarded card in the phase A refill and shuffle the deck again previously to the phase B board refill...


I think you're right, thanks
 
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Big Easier

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Can anyone suggest discard rules for 1 or 2 players?
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Brice Coullaut
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For solo game I play like this :

If I draw the 4th blue card or the 3th card of any type, I must discard it. I don't count the card already in the board from previous round except war.

I found every solo game nice with this variant up to now

 
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Raffaele Spadano
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thanks for sharing this variant mate, do u know if there is an "official" variant to mix all the sets togheter?

I mean, there are, for istance, wars from the same age tat have loss penalty of -6 food, while in the advanced set there is a war tat has a loss penalty of -8/10 food, and this makes the former completely useless.

How do u manage this situation? is there any list of cards to be removed if we mix all the sets of cards? thanks.
 
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Rustan Håkansson
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Raffa80 wrote:
thanks for sharing this variant mate, do u know if there is an "official" variant to mix all the sets togheter?


No, there is no such official variant beyond what is written in the rulebook.
 
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july mjj
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we actually came up with almost the same variant last night.

the normal card distribution are 8 buildings, and 4 of each for the other card types.

so during refill, we keep track how much of each type have been revealed so far, if the drawn card exceeds it's type's normal distribution, we discard it and draw a new one, then repeat the process.

to easily keep track, we just use counting tally marks.

but the normal deck supports up to 4 players only. so with 5 players, maybe just add 4 more building and 2 of the other types. i'm also thinking of maybe lowering the card limit for 2 and 3 players.
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Christoph M.
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I just did some math.

card distribution:

Age I building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader natural wonder
basis 8 4 4 4 6 4 4 5
advanced 3 2 2 2 0 3 2 3
expert 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
promo 1 1
dynasties 2 1 1 5

Age II
basis 8 4 4 4 4 4 4 5
advanced 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3
expert 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 3
promo 1 1
dynasties 2 1 1 1 5

Age III
basis 8 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
advanced 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
expert 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
promo 1 2
dynasties 2 1 1 1 1 5

Age II II
basis 8 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
advanced 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
expert 3 2 2 2 2 3 2 3
promo 1 1 1
dynasties 2 1 1 1 1 4


Using only the base cards, the cards distribution is as follows:


building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader
39 0,205128205 0,102564103 0,102564103 0,102564103 0,153846154 0,102564103 0,102564103 0,128205128
2 2,461538462 1,230769231 1,230769231 1,230769231 1,846153846 1,230769231 1,230769231 1,538461538
3 3,076923077 1,538461538 1,538461538 1,538461538 2,307692308 1,538461538 1,538461538 1,923076923
4 3,692307692 1,846153846 1,846153846 1,846153846 2,769230769 1,846153846 1,846153846 2,307692308
5 4,307692308 2,153846154 2,153846154 2,153846154 3,230769231 2,153846154 2,153846154 2,692307692


37 0,216216216 0,108108108 0,108108108 0,108108108 0,108108108 0,108108108 0,108108108 0,135135135
2 2,594594595 1,297297297 1,297297297 1,297297297 1,297297297 1,297297297 1,297297297 1,621621622
3 3,243243243 1,621621622 1,621621622 1,621621622 1,621621622 1,621621622 1,621621622 2,027027027
4 3,891891892 1,945945946 1,945945946 1,945945946 1,945945946 1,945945946 1,945945946 2,432432432
5 4,540540541 2,27027027 2,27027027 2,27027027 2,27027027 2,27027027 2,27027027 2,837837838


36 0,222222222 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111
2 2,666666667 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333
3 3,333333333 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667
4 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
5 4,666666667 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333


36 0,222222222 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111 0,111111111
2 2,666666667 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333 1,333333333
3 3,333333333 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667 1,666666667
4 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
5 4,666666667 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333 2,333333333


rounded:

building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader sum variance

2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 11 -1
3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17 2
4 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 19 1
4 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 20 -1



3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 11 -1
3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17 2
4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18 0
5 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 20 -1



3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 10 -2
3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17 2
4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18 0
5 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 19 -2



3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 10 -2
3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17 2
4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18 0
5 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 19 -2



per player count:

2 building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader sum
Age I 2 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 11
Age II 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 11
Age III 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 10
Age II II 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 10


3
Age I 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
Age II 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
Age III 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
Age II II 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 17
2 less of (military/golden age/battle/wonder/colony), not more than one each

4
Age I 4 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 19
Age II 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18
Age III 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18
Age II II 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18


5
Age I 4 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 20
Age II 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 20
Age III 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 19
Age II II 5 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 19


unified over the ages, per player count:

building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader sum
2 players 3 1 1 1 2 1 1 2 12
3 players 3 1* 1* 1* 2 1* 1* 2 12+3
* additionally keep the second card drawn in each category, but not more than 3 cards total
4 players 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 18
5 players 5 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 21


this is closest to standard distribution with base cards.
To keep a larger deviation you could use up to 1,5 or 2 times the standard distribution:

x1,5 building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader sum
2 players 5 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 21
3 players 5 2 2 2 3 2 2 3 21
4 players 6 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 27
5 players 8 3 3 3 5 3 3 5 33



x2 building military golden age battle war wonder colony leader sum
2 players 6 2 2 2 4 2 2 4 24
3 players 6 3 3 3 4 3 3 4 29
4 players 8 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 36
5 players 10 4 4 4 6 4 4 6 42



Natural wonders = wonders.

To be played as follows:
keep all cards until you have reached the stated number. After this, discard all cards of this type.

i.e. if playing a 2 player game with a x1,5 deviation:
keep the first
- 5 buildings
- 2 military
- 2 golden ages
- 2 battles
- 3 wars
- 2 wonders
- 2 colonies
- 3 leaders
discard all further cards of the same category.
Keep drawing until you have reached 12 cards (full tableau).


To streamline it further, you could use the following rule:
2 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 2 of every other category
3 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
4 players: keep the first 6 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
5 players: keep the first 8 buildings, the first 4 of every other category


This adds up to potentially 19/26/27/36 cards, of which only 12/15/18/21 are actually used, i.e. it is still possible that some categories don't appear at all.
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Rustan Håkansson
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Chris Coyote wrote:

To streamline it further, you could use the following rule:
2 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 2 of every other category
3 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
4 players: keep the first 6 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
5 players: keep the first 8 buildings, the first 4 of every other category


This adds up to potentially 19/26/27/36 cards, of which only 12/15/18/21 are actually used, i.e. it is still possible that some categories don't appear at all.


This looks very reasonable for those want to reduce variance a little bit with just a bit extra work. Thanks!
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Rustan Håkansson
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I put a link here from the dynasties front page.
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Paulo Renato
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RustanR wrote:
Chris Coyote wrote:

To streamline it further, you could use the following rule:
2 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 2 of every other category
3 players: keep the first 5 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
4 players: keep the first 6 buildings, the first 3 of every other category
5 players: keep the first 8 buildings, the first 4 of every other category


This adds up to potentially 19/26/27/36 cards, of which only 12/15/18/21 are actually used, i.e. it is still possible that some categories don't appear at all.


This looks very reasonable for those want to reduce variance a little bit with just a bit extra work. Thanks!


just to be sure, these are the numbers when using all cards or just the basic cards? I play using all cards.
Also, the numbers are saying when you reach X number of cards discar and draw another card...
The X is counting the cards that were drawn in the previous round, right?

Thank you
 
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Rustan Håkansson
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Muse23PT wrote:

just to be sure, these are the numbers when using all cards or just the basic cards? I play using all cards.
Also, the numbers are saying when you reach X number of cards discar and draw another card...
The X is counting the cards that were drawn in the previous round, right?


This is useful when you want to have lower variability and are playing with all cards from base game or all cards+all cards from Dynasties. When you only play with the basic cards it should not be needed.

Count the number of total cards in the display, it is easier and gives lower variability.
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Paulo Renato
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thanks
 
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Big Head Zach
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To clarify, you reset the tally for each round of an age? So for 4 players you would keep the first 6 buildings during A, and then deal no more than 6 new buildings in B?
 
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David Gardner
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I believe from the above it works this way:

You look at what's left on the board, after A. Then you deal B, accordingly.

So in a 4-player game, if there are still 2 blue cards on the board after A, then for B you could deal out 4 more blue ones -- but if a fifth one came out (which would make the 7th on the board), you discard it and keep drawing for a new type.
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Big Head Zach
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David Gardner wrote:
I believe from the above it works this way:

You look at what's left on the board, after A. Then you deal B, accordingly.

So in a 4-player game, if there are still 2 blue cards on the board after A, then for B you could deal out 4 more blue ones -- but if a fifth one came out (which would make the 7th on the board), you discard it and keep drawing for a new type.


Ok, so you would count the leftovers in the tally. Would this tally carry over in the transition between B to A of the next age?
 
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David Gardner
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I would expect so, yes.
 
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I'm just learning of this variant and am excited to try it out.

One question for those who have played it repeatedly: Have you noticed an uptick in the appearance of wars? I assume this would happen because you're cycling through more of the deck. An increase in the appearance of war would have a significant impact, especially on the solo game.

 
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Paulo Santoro
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Wretched Git wrote:
I'm just learning of this variant and am excited to try it out.

One question for those who have played it repeatedly: Have you noticed an uptick in the appearance of wars? I assume this would happen because you're cycling through more of the deck. An increase in the appearance of war would have a significant impact, especially on the solo game.



In fact, if you play "normal" game with only the basic cards, or if you play the rulebook suggestion to replace basic cards with advanced and expert cards, keeping the ratio, you would also have a regular presence of war (and every other) cards.
This suggestion makes easy to use all the cards without wild swings of type of cards.
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Jimmy Bjorck
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I like this system very much. But here is my idea of how I use it. I must foremost say that I like the simplicity of the above, and my is maybe a bit to much against streamlining, however.

2 player game

5 Buildings
1 golden age, battle and natural wonder
2 of everything else

And One Joker, put in the 3 gold space for 3+ player, which can overide previous rules. If not bought, it is replaced by a new card in the next round.


I also use a tweaked 3rd player "AI", mentioned in other threads, but that´s another story
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Raphael G.
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Dekraa wrote:

1 golden age, battle and natural wonder


While I may see the reasons, it would be cool if you could elaborate a little regarding this limit ?

Dekraa wrote:

And One Joker, put in the 3 gold space for 3+ player, which can overide previous rules. If not bought, it is replaced by a new card in the next round.


Nice idea indeed to work with the above.
Thx for sharing.
 
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