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The Card Game of Oz» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question concerning 'Storm Cellar * Small Black Hole' Location rss

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Montgomery Van
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A raging debate popped up in a game last night concerning this card. I am starting to suspect I may have been wrong, but am hoping for some clarification.

* The Storm Cellar is revealed ("Characters are Vitality -X, where 'X' is the number of Characters at this Location -1").

* On my turn I move Toto (Vitality 2) into the Cellar location. After applying the location text, the dog has a Vitality of 1. Is this correct?

* On my opponent's turn, they move their Dorothy * Dressed For Travel (Vitality 4) into the same location. Now that there are two characters here, Dorothy's Vitality is reduced to 2.

Here is where the debate became quite spirited...

* On my following turn, is Toto archived simply because he started in the Cellar location? My wife argued that because there are two characters in the cellar, Toto's starting Vitality is 0 - which, of course, archives him.

I, on the other hand, argued that the location text only applies when a character MOVES INTO the location. She refuted me by pointing out that the location text goes not specify 'moving into/out of'.

She eventually got sick of me arguing the point and let me 'win the debate', but the more I think of it, the more sheepish I become.

So... did my wife (once again) 'kill' Toto?
 
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Scott Saccenti
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**EDIT** - Ignore my contribution below. blush The correct reading is the response by Vicious Tiger below thumbsup

The only thing I see in the rules about this is:

"Characters whose Vitality becomes zero or less must immediately be archived." [Page 6]

Seems pretty clear that Toto is archived immediately upon Dorothy's entry into the Location.

A related question: suppose Toto was there--as in your scenario--and then a character whose Vitality was 2 entered (was forced to enter, probably) the Storm Cellar.

Do both characters get archived simultaneously, or is there a sequence involved? I've been playing this thematically: the character that tried to enter the Storm Cellar (but hasn't the Vitality to survive the move) gets archived immediately, thus not triggering the Vitality drop on the characters already inside.
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Montgomery Van
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saccenti wrote:
The only thing I see in the rules about this is:

"Characters whose Vitality becomes zero or less must immediately be archived." [Page 6]

Seems pretty clear that Toto is archived immediately upon Dorothy's entry into the Location.

A related question: suppose Toto was there--as in your scenario--and then a character whose Vitality was 2 entered (was forced to enter, probably) the Storm Cellar.

Do both characters get archived simultaneously, or is there a sequence involved? I've been playing this thematically: the character that tried to enter the Storm Cellar (but hasn't the Vitality to survive the move) gets archived immediately, thus not triggering the Vitality drop on the characters already inside.


Rats!

Neither of us even picked up on the fact that Toto, in this case, should have been wiped when Dorothy moved into the cellar. I assumed that the location text only applied, in this case, to Dorothy when she moved in - not to characters already 'huddled in the cellar'.

Thematically, I saw it as such: Toto hid in the cellar during a storm (my turn). Because there was enough room, Dorothy squeezed her way into it (wife's turn). The way my wife was arguing it, on my following turn... Dorothy tosses the dog out to his doom?

Yikes!
 
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Scott Saccenti
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I think that thematically--for this particular card--your interpretation makes more sense, even if by the letter of the rules I might be correct.
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Vicious Tiger
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Timing and sequence of when actions occur and effects applied can be crucial in games of this sort (e.g. "A Game of Thrones - The Card Game"). Since not specifically mentioned in the rules, I've been applying the general principle of recalculating based on all applicable triggered card effects and applying to all characters simultaneously. Should one or more find their vitality reduced to zero, they are archived immediately - no waiting for next turn, or recalculating again because one archived before the other.

In the case of your example with "Storm Cellar - Small Black Hole", are there only 2 characters (Toto and Dorothy) at the location? If so, then both are safe.


Mont Van wrote:

* The Storm Cellar is revealed ("Characters are Vitality -X, where 'X' is the number of Characters at this Location -1").

* On my turn I move Toto (Vitality 2) into the Cellar location. After applying the location text, the dog has a Vitality of 1. Is this correct?



If Toto (Vitality 2) is the only character in the "Storm Cellar" location, then X=0 (1 character - 1 = 0):
- Toto's vitality is reduced by 0 to "Toto (Vitality 2)" unchanged

When Dorothy (Vitality 3) enters, there are now two characters at the location and X=1 (2 characters - 1 = 1):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 is reduced by 1 to "Dorothy (Vitality 2)"
- Toto has additional card effect (Vitality +1 at same location as Dorothy - doesn't matter that she belongs to other player), so Toto is +1 from Dorothy and -1 from "Storm Cellar" with net result "Toto (Vitality 2)"


Should a third character enter, then X=2 (3 characters - 1 = 2):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 reduced by 2 to "Dorothy Vitality 1"
- Toto's base vitality 2 is +1 from Dorothy and -2 "Storm Cellar" with net "Toto Vitality 1"


Should a fourth character enter, then X=3 (4 characters - 1 = 3):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 reduced by 3 to "Dorothy Vitality 0" [ARCHIVED IMMEDIATELY]
- Toto's base vitality 2 is +1 from Dorothy and -3 "Storm Cellar" with net "Toto Vitality 0" [ARCHIVED IMMEDIATELY]

etc.
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Jim O'Connor
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victiger wrote:
Timing and sequence of when actions occur and effects applied can be crucial in games of this sort (e.g. "A Game of Thrones - The Card Game"). Since not specifically mentioned in the rules, I've been applying the general principle of recalculating based on all applicable triggered card effects and applying to all characters simultaneously. Should one or more find their vitality reduced to zero, they are archived immediately - no waiting for next turn, or recalculating again because one archived before the other.

In the case of your example with "Storm Cellar - Small Black Hole", are there only 2 characters (Toto and Dorothy) at the location? If so, then both are safe.


Mont Van wrote:

* The Storm Cellar is revealed ("Characters are Vitality -X, where 'X' is the number of Characters at this Location -1").

* On my turn I move Toto (Vitality 2) into the Cellar location. After applying the location text, the dog has a Vitality of 1. Is this correct?



If Toto (Vitality 2) is the only character in the "Storm Cellar" location, then X=0 (1 character - 1 = 0):
- Toto's vitality is reduced by 0 to "Toto (Vitality 2)" unchanged

When Dorothy (Vitality 3) enters, there are now two characters at the location and X=1 (2 characters - 1 = 1):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 is reduced by 1 to "Dorothy (Vitality 2)"
- Toto has additional card effect (Vitality +1 at same location as Dorothy - doesn't matter that she belongs to other player), so Toto is +1 from Dorothy and -1 from "Storm Cellar" with net result "Toto (Vitality 2)"


Should a third character enter, then X=2 (3 characters - 1 = 2):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 reduced by 2 to "Dorothy Vitality 1"
- Toto's base vitality 2 is +1 from Dorothy and -2 "Storm Cellar" with net "Toto Vitality 1"


Should a fourth character enter, then X=3 (4 characters - 1 = 3):
- Dorothy's base vitality 3 reduced by 3 to "Dorothy Vitality 0" [ARCHIVED IMMEDIATELY]
- Toto's base vitality 2 is +1 from Dorothy and -3 "Storm Cellar" with net "Toto Vitality 0" [ARCHIVED IMMEDIATELY]

etc.


Exactly correct!

(I had written and posted a response, but then saw yours and got rid of mine. Yours is far more concise.)
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Montgomery Van
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Thank you very much, Vicious Tiger. Your explanation is most helpful.

Our interpretation of that last '-1' bit on the Cellar location looks to have been our downfall. I've really got to start learning to just play the cards exactly as written.
 
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Jim O'Connor
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Mont Van wrote:

I've really got to start learning to just play the cards exactly as written.


That's a good thing to note. I worked very hard to make the text as precise as possibe. The rules are simple. The complexity comes in the cards.
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