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Subject: anyone think the Weyoun, conditional surrender, li nalas is a broken combo rss

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dario gonzalez
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i faced someone who used this combo and i was not able to get any hits in the entire game, its pretty much an infinite combo, unless your facing someone who is using a lot of ships.
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H. Tucker Cobey
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Varel is better than CS, and yes, *everyone* thinks that.
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Raymond Albright
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No

But I think the meta has to shift toward ganking cards before a definitive answer can be had

people have been ignoring the gankers so far, but if people keep playing that combo the old gankers and the new gankers will start to see more play, if that curbs the combo so it is instead of devestating just annoying then we are all good.
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Keoki Young
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It's a nice combo, but certainly not undefeatable. It only works once per round, so if there's more than one ship in the opponent's fleet, it could still hurt you. If it's a one-on-one battle, your opponent could try causing you to overlap and lose the Action needed to re-enable Weyoun. That would put a stop to this shenanigan, at least for a round.
 
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Jon NyD

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EmperorZeruel wrote:
i faced someone who used this combo and i was not able to get any hits in the entire game, its pretty much an infinite combo, unless your facing someone who is using a lot of ships.


So what was your build that you couldn't get any hits? Was it a single ship? Yes, this combo creates a good combo, but its hardly unbeatable.
 
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Eric B.
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jonnyd76 wrote:
EmperorZeruel wrote:
i faced someone who used this combo and i was not able to get any hits in the entire game, its pretty much an infinite combo, unless your facing someone who is using a lot of ships.


So what was your build that you couldn't get any hits? Was it a single ship? Yes, this combo creates a good combo, but its hardly unbeatable.


Please, share your win loss record against this list. What builds were you running? What was the opponent's Conditional Surrender build?

The response "is hardly unbeatable" is meaningless to me anymore. ANY list can, in theory, beat ANY other list since this is a dice game at the end of the day and someone could roll all blanks the entire game. But being theoretically beatable hardly disqualifies a list from being "broken" in the sense that it skews the game by having an innate advantage on the table (meaning, it tends to win more than 50% of the time time and less than 100% of the time).

No one talking about balance ever means "LIST A IS UNBEATABLE!!!" That's not what "broken" means, in common parlance...

 
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C. E. Freeman
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RogueThirteen wrote:
jonnyd76 wrote:
EmperorZeruel wrote:
i faced someone who used this combo and i was not able to get any hits in the entire game, its pretty much an infinite combo, unless your facing someone who is using a lot of ships.


So what was your build that you couldn't get any hits? Was it a single ship? Yes, this combo creates a good combo, but its hardly unbeatable.


Please, share your win loss record against this list. What builds were you running? What was the opponent's Conditional Surrender build?

The response "is hardly unbeatable" is meaningless to me anymore. ANY list can, in theory, beat ANY other list since this is a dice game at the end of the day and someone could roll all blanks the entire game. But being theoretically beatable hardly disqualifies a list from being "broken" in the sense that it skews the game by having an innate advantage on the table (meaning, it tends to win more than 50% of the time time and less than 100% of the time).

No one talking about balance ever means "LIST A IS UNBEATABLE!!!" That's not what "broken" means, in common parlance...



The Conditional Surrender list is devastating to an opponent unprepared for it. While this could be said of other lists it is particularly true of the CS list. The counters (O'Brien, crew gankers, I Am Kohm-Ma) to the list are generally quite a bit cheaper than the set up on the ship with CS which is frequently a 2 ship list. Once you crack the CS ship, clean up is fairly routine. As you know, if I can counter your greatest strength at a fraction that it cost you I will have an advantage, all other considerations being equal.

I ran a CS list to a fairly easy tournament win. The only list that gave me a problem contained the Kraxon, 2 Keldon Class, and the Hideki Fighters. This should come as no surprise as it brought 4 good attacks to bear and I could cancel 3 the first round a 1 per round after that. I wouldn't run my list again for a while. Now that my group has seen it everybody only needs to find 2 or 3 points for O'Brien to shut down its greatest strength and destroy my CS ship in the 1st engagement. The CS list is fairly easy to shut down at a cheap price, this is why it is hardly considered unbeatable.
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Jon NyD

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RogueThirteen wrote:


Please, share your win loss record against this list. What builds were you running? What was the opponent's Conditional Surrender build?

The response "is hardly unbeatable" is meaningless to me anymore. ANY list can, in theory, beat ANY other list since this is a dice game at the end of the day and someone could roll all blanks the entire game. But being theoretically beatable hardly disqualifies a list from being "broken" in the sense that it skews the game by having an innate advantage on the table (meaning, it tends to win more than 50% of the time time and less than 100% of the time).

No one talking about balance ever means "LIST A IS UNBEATABLE!!!" That's not what "broken" means, in common parlance...



I've never faced this fleet in an OP. I'm at least 3-0 against something containing a weyoun/conditional surrender build in practice. The lists I brought? The "usual suspects". But our meta around here is MUCH different that what I see reported on this site.

I asked a couple more questions to the OP to see if we could figure out why they thought it was an "infinite combo", as it seems like they think its unbeatable.

In the future, I'll keep the subject line more in context with my responses. To the OP: Yes, it's a tough combo to face. And especially if you're down to 1 ship. What did you bring?

 
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dario gonzalez
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jonnyd76 wrote:
RogueThirteen wrote:


Please, share your win loss record against this list. What builds were you running? What was the opponent's Conditional Surrender build?

The response "is hardly unbeatable" is meaningless to me anymore. ANY list can, in theory, beat ANY other list since this is a dice game at the end of the day and someone could roll all blanks the entire game. But being theoretically beatable hardly disqualifies a list from being "broken" in the sense that it skews the game by having an innate advantage on the table (meaning, it tends to win more than 50% of the time time and less than 100% of the time).

No one talking about balance ever means "LIST A IS UNBEATABLE!!!" That's not what "broken" means, in common parlance...



I've never faced this fleet in an OP. I'm at least 3-0 against something containing a weyoun/conditional surrender build in practice. The lists I brought? The "usual suspects". But our meta around here is MUCH different that what I see reported on this site.

I asked a couple more questions to the OP to see if we could figure out why they thought it was an "infinite combo", as it seems like they think its unbeatable.

In the future, I'll keep the subject line more in context with my responses. To the OP: Yes, it's a tough combo to face. And especially if you're down to 1 ship. What did you bring?



i had iks ma-ha
worf
n'garen
em pulse
bukah
barrage of fire

negh'var class
martok
drex
barrage of fire

Hideki Fighters
admiral's orders

he has another conditional surrender on his 2nd ship which prevented me to attack it three times, but by them it was too late.


 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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I've beaten Weyoun/Varel too many times to think the combo is broken. Its a difficult and neigh impossible matchup for some fleets, but so are any number of other things. Barrage of fire will devastate some fleets, 9 defense dice fleets cause some fleets fits. There are a number of builds pushed to the max in one direction and it takes a balanced fleet to take them all out.
 
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Obsolete Man
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Conditional Surrender, et al., lists are meant to counter things like Barrage of Fire (or Transphasic Torps, eventually). You brought the list he was building to counter, so it's no surprise that you got hammered.

As others have said, there are lots of ways to disable or even steal one or more critical cards in that combo. Miles O'Brien, Superior Intellect, Chang, Klingon Boarding Party, etc. can ruin that combo which pretty much puts a hurt on the whole build (as indicated above, the counter to the combo is much cheaper than the combo itself).

If you play in a cross-faction "no holds barred" environment, you are going to want one or more 'combo counters' in your list. Otherwise you're at the mercy of the enemy's combo, just like they'd be at the mercy of your Drexified Barrage of Fire if they didn't have a counter to that.

Attack cancellation is not "broken". In an 'open build' environment, expect to face horrendous combos. You bring your combo and your counter-combo stuff, and the enemy does the same.
 
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Will Sanchez
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builds like this are something we addressed in SotF episode 1, http://boardgamegeek.com/video/44098/star-trek-attack-wing/s...

for a quick start though - number 1 bring miles O'Brien on every fleet. We don't live in a game anymore where you can safely ignore what your opponent is doing and only focus on your own fleet. You need some kind of wrench to throw in the works of a combo fleet, or else you'll face it's full wrath. "You must know your enemy and you must know yourself".

If somehow you end up facing the build without preparing for it, again, you need to try to get in close for action denial, or just overwhelm the enemy with quantity rather than quality attacks. The other thing is a good mine list (cloaked or otherwise) can hurt Conditional Surrender alot because it is not an attack and thus can't be negated.
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dario gonzalez
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do you think if i take a jacked up borg sphere and assililate conditional surrender?
 
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Dan M
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Wouldn't the easiest way to break this combo be...Faction pure? devil
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C. E. Freeman
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EmperorZeruel wrote:
do you think if i take a jacked up borg sphere and assililate conditional surrender?


You can't assimilate Conditional Surrender. You could assimilate his crew rendering CS useless.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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EmperorZeruel wrote:
do you think if i take a jacked up borg sphere and assililate conditional surrender?


It would but you'd have to steal Li Nalas rather than the Conditional Surrender as the Assimilation tubules only work on crew, tech or weapons.

Edit: Ninja'd again
 
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C. E. Freeman
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
Wouldn't the easiest way to break this combo be...Faction pure? devil


It's easy enough to beat if you are prepared to face it. You don't need to go faction pure although that would certainly make the combo impossible.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
Wouldn't the easiest way to break this combo be...Faction pure? devil


Yep, the easiest way to deal with anything you don't know how to handle is to change the rules to make it illegal. Not sure it's that sporting, though.
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Jon NyD

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EmperorZeruel wrote:


i had iks ma-ha
worf
n'garen
em pulse
bukah
barrage of fire

negh'var class
martok
drex
barrage of fire

Hideki Fighters
admiral's orders

he has another conditional surrender on his 2nd ship which prevented me to attack it three times, but by them it was too late.



I'm wondering more about your strategy, because looking at this particular fleet it would seem like you would have the upper hand against a conditional surrender build. I only say that because you have the basis of a 3-ship Klingon fleet. Lots of high attacks.

If I were running the fleet you have, going against the fleet with Conditional Surrender, I would have setup your 3 ships pretty widely apart. The strategy I would employ would be to draw them into one ship, then erratically send that ship outside arcs without a shot. Even if the ship they were after didn't get a shot that's fine, you should be flanking with your other two ships. Making the opponent do red maneuvers will kill them, as then they can't re-enable CS. Hold the barrage of fires until the very end when CS is done for. Doing CS multiple times in a turn only lasts a turn or two, and you have some pretty beefy ships. Unless you get an unlucky crit (which has defeated even the best of 'em). Remember, CS has to be used before dice are rolled so don't announce BOF until CS can't be done!

What was the strategy you used? How did you fly? Was this an OP? Can you give us more on the situation?


And in response to your next question, the answer to CS is most definitely NOT a single ship badass borg cube build. With only one attack each round (or even two, split between 2 ships) that game is one of attrition that you will most definitely NOT win! I think you had the right idea with a 3-ship build.
 
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Dan M
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rtsuk wrote:
DrunkDwarves wrote:
Wouldn't the easiest way to break this combo be...Faction pure? devil


Yep, the easiest way to deal with anything you don't know how to handle is to change the rules to make it illegal. Not sure it's that sporting, though.


Ah but passive insults are sporting. shake
 
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Rob Tsuk
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DrunkDwarves wrote:

Ah but passive insults are sporting. shake


Well I was aiming more for snark than insult. I'm sorry if it was more the latter than the former.

That said, injecting the faction purity argument into every discussion of a combo isn't that great behavior, either.
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Dan M
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You don't think I know that? Hence my little devil icon.

The thing though is pure vs mixed is at the heart of most combo discussions. So that's why it is brought up so often. Like I said "the easiest" way is to go pure faction to break this combo because it is one of a handful viable path to take. And that's true for most power combos.

My personal opinion is that when you have to use the phrase or something to the effect of "it is beatable if you are prepared for it" the game starts to lose a little something. Because that means it is possible to win or lose a game before the ships even hit the table.
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Ted Kay
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
You don't think I know that? Hence my little devil icon.

The thing though is pure vs mixed is at the heart of most combo discussions. So that's why it is brought up so often. Like I said "the easiest" way is to go pure faction to break this combo because it is one of a handful viable path to take. And that's true for most power combos.

My personal opinion is that when you have to use the phrase or something to the effect of "it is beatable if you are prepared for it" the game starts to lose a little something. Because that means it is possible to win or lose a game before the ships even hit the table.


Pilots have a saying: "Aviate, navigate, communicate." I am reminded of that here. In Attack Wing, poor planning or poor player choices are ALWAYS the things that lose matches. List building is part of that. If you were going to lose before you even played the match, you've dug your own hole there.

In a match, the most important thing is flying; to Aviate. How you fly in your specific circumstances as they are is where you have the most control in this game. The next part is to Navigate- set a destination and create a plan to get there. This can be any objective you have in the match.

Communicate in Attack Wing doesn't have a direct parallel I can think of to radio communications on an aircraft, but I'd probably say the next step is to allow your opponents' moves to inform your process and possibly adjust to compensate. This allows you to prevent errors you may not have realized were errors.

My advice to the OP: use this as a learning experience and let that help your builds in the future.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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DrunkDwarves wrote:
You don't think I know that? Hence my little devil icon.

The thing though is pure vs mixed is at the heart of most combo discussions. So that's why it is brought up so often. Like I said "the easiest" way is to go pure faction to break this combo because it is one of a handful viable path to take. And that's true for most power combos.

My personal opinion is that when you have to use the phrase or something to the effect of "it is beatable if you are prepared for it" the game starts to lose a little something. Because that means it is possible to win or lose a game before the ships even hit the table.


Ok, apology retracted. If you're going to troll me I'll insult you. Even stevens.

Since I don't have a lot to do this weekend I'll start up the canonical faction purity argument thread so I can write it once there and just refer to each time the imp of the perverse moves you to troll a bit.
 
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Kevin Smith
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Is it broken?
No.
Does it make the game more fun to play?
No.
In my opinion there are starting to be a few too many combos that are very difficult to play against if you're not specifically prepared for them. And that is taking the game in a direction I'd rather not see it go.

Kevin
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