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The Resistance: Avalon» Forums » Rules

Subject: Are private discussions allowed? rss

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William Russell
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I got this game last week and we played a few rounds. At one point we were certain about who three of the four Good guys were and had a little private discussion about how we'd vote in the next team building phase. As part of that discussion, Merlin revealed themselves and assured us of who the fourth good person was.

This was all without the other three players being permitted to hear us.

I wasn't personally sure that that was okay, so what do you guys think?
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Rich Moore
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Whoa...absolutely not okay.
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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How did Merlin 'reveal' himself? You can not show the character cards, so anything anyone says can not be taken at face value. So, private discussions are not any use to anyone. Although Clyde likes them to meta-meta the game, all of our communication is public.
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Clyde W
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The rules don't say. A lot of people here like to murder the fun away by calling private conversations cheating. If you have ever played Werewolf with hardcore wolfers like at BGGCON, you'll know private conversation isn't just allowed, but encouraged.

Your choice. I'd play it both ways and see which you prefer. Just let everyone know it can be a tool for both good and evil, then give examples of how both sides might use it. Spies can use it to coordinate when they're on-mission together, and can privately claim Merlin to good guys, while Merlin can claim Merlin to good and ask them to publicly claim Merlin and out bad guys.
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James Cheng
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clydeiii wrote:
The rules don't say. A lot of people here like to murder the fun away by calling private conversations cheating. If you have ever played Werewolf with hardcore wolfers like at BGGCON, you'll know private conversation isn't just allowed, but encouraged.

Your choice. I'd play it both ways and see which you prefer. Just let everyone know it can be a tool for both good and evil, then give examples of how both sides might use it. Spies can use it to coordinate when they're on-mission together, and can privately claim Merlin to good guys, while Merlin can claim Merlin to good and ask them to publicly claim Merlin and out bad guys.


Ha ha, Clyde. While it should not be call cheating if all the players agree with private conversation, as the rule did not specific it either way(IIRC), people not agreeing with you are not trying to kill/murder fun.

Like you say, each group should try for themselves and decide.
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Clyde W
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Bill Grant
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I was going to add that this is a bit of a group-specific thing... I wouldn't be ok with a sub-group walking away and whispering to each other, but if a player tapped another on the shoulder in public, or tried to say something others didn't hear, I wouldn't be opposed to the strategy.

But again, I think it varies by group. The strictest rule interpretation likely does not allow any non-public information in the game.
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Bill Grant
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Multi-ninja'd, but that was exactly the kind of commentary I expected.
 
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James Cheng
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Billgrant wrote:
Multi-ninja'd, but that was exactly the kind of commentary I expected.


You've made a very well thought out post. I just jumped in expecting to see Clyde's words, which I did, and try to act like a sensitive person, which I guess only makes me appeared over-sensitive.
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Bill Grant
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eunoia wrote:
Billgrant wrote:
Multi-ninja'd, but that was exactly the kind of commentary I expected.


You've made a very well thought out post. I just jumped in expecting to see Clyde's words, which I did, and try to act like a sensitive person, which I guess only makes me appeared over-sensitive.

Ha! I'd hardly say "over-sensitive" but it proves that different groups like to play the game differently. For the type of game it is I think this is welcome. (I'm not sure chess players would want their rules to be as loose.)

I find it interesting that some groups play with the vote secret (either because they played it this way by accident or just because that's how they think the game is supposed to be played). Now this is no Resistance game I want to play but it hardly bothers me.
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John
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Sounds to me like this was the only private discussion in the game, and in this case it probably favoured the good them more than the other. It's not totally in favour of the good team as evil can be reasonably certain that Merlin was involved in the discussion so you've just increased the change of a successful assassination from 1/4 to 1/3 assuming evil had no other info. However presumably there was some discussion prior to the private discussion and the spies might have been able to work out who Merlin was from that. If not it might have left the spies feeling a bit annoyed, however if you play another few games doing the same thing and the spies benefit and everyone is happy to play that way I don't see why not.
 
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David Williams
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The interesting dynamic here is that not all lies are equal.

For example: 2 people go on a quest, 1 minion and 1 servant, and the minion fails the quest. The servants knows for a fact the other is a minion and accuses them aggressively. The servant must then lie in front of everyone, but this lie is reactionary, and defensive. It doesn't seem like a betrayal to the accused, they are playing the game the only possible way and at this stage it must involve lying.

However if you are a minion but 1 people you know is a servant speaks to you in private, and you pro-actively lie to them saying you are Merlin and they should follow your lead, then this is more personal. Most people will be more trusting in this scenario for that reason. But that means it is even more open to abuse from someone willing to cross that line and lie anyway.

But personally I it seems to me this doesn't sound much fun for those left at the table waiting, and once someone has crossed the line so people still cannot trust even private discussion, it can just slow the game down without really achieving much. And if those at the table keep talking among themselves, then the advantage is balancing out anyway.

So I think personally I would say everyone should stay at the table during the game. If they want private discussion, they can try to whisper or signal because at least these don't draw the game to a halt, plus others can potentially see them.
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Joni H
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The resistance can guarantee victory 100% if you allow private conversations in a game with merlin and assassin(assassins still have random chance at guessing merlin though), without any information about merlin identity leaking out. Although method for such victory would be a bit weird, it kinda would break the game since whenever in doubt, you could just resort to that strategy.
 
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Clyde W
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Maamyyra wrote:
The resistance can guarantee victory 100% if you allow private conversations in a game with merlin and assassin(assassins still have random chance at guessing merlin though), without any information about merlin identity leaking out. Although method for such victory would be a bit weird, it kinda would break the game since whenever in doubt, you could just resort to that strategy.
This is why you always include Mordred. And why spies must always claim Merlin.
 
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Joni H
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clydeiii wrote:
This is why you always include Mordred. And why spies must always claim Merlin.


I haven't played with Mordred yet, but it would intuitively feel like it should help in remedying game breaking down from simple private discussion. But my opinion remains, I think it's very much against the spirit of the game to have private discussions about anything, that's simply a too powerful a tool that can be used to twist the game mechanics around and force victory out of unfun strategies.

That being said, I haven't thought of strategies to use with 5-player game with Mordred, Merlin and Assassin.
 
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Clyde W
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The game totally works if you allow private convos. Mordred and assassin can claim Merlin at any time and that confuses rebs.
 
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Joni H
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clydeiii wrote:
The game totally works if you allow private convos. Mordred and assassin can claim Merlin at any time and that confuses rebs.


Curiously, I can't think of any scheme in which Merlin gives any information to anyone else with Mordred, Assassin and Merlini in game(5 players), and you could mechanically guarantee better win chance than 20%(which you can do without Merlin opening his eyes at all during night phase)

This seems extremely counterintuitive to me, having any information at all should improve win rate for the resistance, but here I just don't see any way at all, even with private conversations, where it could provide any benefit.
 
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Clyde W
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The only reason why Merlin exist (in my opinion) is to reduce AP in the game and give spies something to do other than lie. That's it (from my POV). It's just that those two things SIGNIFICANTLY improve my enjoyment of the game, because my least two favorite things about Vanilla Resistance are being a spy and AP-prone players.
 
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Joni H
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clydeiii wrote:
The only reason why Merlin exist (in my opinion) is to reduce AP in the game and give spies something to do other than lie. That's it (from my POV). It's just that those two things SIGNIFICANTLY improve my enjoyment of the game, because my least two favorite things about Vanilla Resistance are being a spy and AP-prone players.


What is AP? I do agree about Merlin improving the enjoyment of being a spy due to getting something to figure out.
 
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Clyde W
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Sorry, "analysis paralysis." Basically, it's what happens in Vanilla Resistance always: good guys sit there trying to figure it all out, analyzing voting records, tells, etc. And since spies have to blend in, they also need to act like they're trying to figure it out.

Merlin removes all that junk. You just say, "I'm Merlin and Bobby and Jimbo are spies. GG!"
 
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