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Subject: 5 dmg AMC rss

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Jeremy Steward
Canada
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The issue: The major underlying issue is that improved hull is overpowered. Any experienced player will tell you that this is the most efficient ship part in the game. With one, it requires 2 orange hits to kill the ship, and with 2, it takes 2 red hits (or 1 and something else) or 3 orange hits. Improved Hull is so effective because all of the upgraded cannons do even numbered damage.

AMCs are expensive, high in the tree and were designed to eat through hull, but they are rendered rather inefficient by the defender simply having 2 improved hull.

The variant: AMCs do 5 damage and cost 5 energy
It is a simple change, but it changes the dynamics of the game significantly (For the better imo).

-Improved Hull now effectively has a counter, as having 2 results in death. 3 IH stops it but then you are cutting into your offense. (Cruisers essentially have 4 slots for offense and defense and they are pretty toothless with only a cannon, Dreadnoughts usually have 3 off/3 def or 4 off/2 def so it affects them less)
-Phase Shields become more useful, since shields>hull when your ship is one shot by an single hit.
-Previously, a 3 hull ship part was near useless since you died in the same number of orange and red hits unless you had 2. This variant makes Shard Hull much more valuable.
-The 5 energy keeps it honest, it means with only a fusion source, you only have enough energy for that and your drive, requiring a source better than fusion (or extra energy on your ship) for it to be most effective.
-It creates a late game triangle AMCs>Heavy Defense>Plasma Missiles>AMCs.

It is simple change that imo, creates a more dynamic late game.
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neko flying
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I agree IH is one of the best techs out there. I disagree that it is overpowered: race selection in reverse turn order is there just for that reason.

This being said, I have nothing against your variant. AMC are maybe a little bit weak in the original game. So I think your variant could work.

However, I would advise to get RotA. Sentient Hull and Antimatter Splitter contribute to fixing the "problem" you've pointed out in two slightly different ways, by buffing AMC and by providing a very good alternative for those that cannot get their hands on IH.
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Peter Bakija
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Deadwolf wrote:
The issue: The major underlying issue is that improved hull is overpowered.


I don't know that this is a major underlying issue. In the non expanded game, yeah, Improved Hull is a total no brainer (and usually the first tech picked up on the first turn if it is on the table), but the issue, really, is that *without* Improved Hull, you are not where you need to be for combat (just like Neutron Bombs--if you don't have Improved Hull, you probably shouldn't be fighting people).

Not to harp on Plasma Missiles more, but in the basic game, really, the only way to possibly compete with Plasma Missiles (other than with more Plasma Missiles) is with Improved Hull, and that Improved Hull is cheap is important in this instance.

Quote:
Any experienced player will tell you that this is the most efficient ship part in the game. With one, it requires 2 orange hits to kill the ship, and with 2, it takes 2 red hits (or 1 and something else) or 3 orange hits. Improved Hull is so effective because all of the upgraded cannons do even numbered damage.


This is true. And a feature, not a bug. Ships need to have a chance at survival to make combat worth getting involved in.

Quote:
AMCs are expensive, high in the tree and were designed to eat through hull, but they are rendered rather inefficient by the defender simply having 2 improved hull.


A ship with 2xAC and a Gluon Computer (or two +2 computers) is going to handily vaporize a ship with 2 Improved Hull most of the time. Even three.

Quote:
The variant: AMCs do 5 damage and cost 5 energy
It is a simple change, but it changes the dynamics of the game significantly (For the better imo).


I don't know that this is necessary at all. I mean, yeah, Anti-Matter Cannons are arguably a little underpowered, but not 'cause they only do 4 damage (it is 'cause they cost 4 power and often waste a lot of damage on a single hit). In the expanded game, with Anti-Matter Splitters and Point Defense, ACs are actually totally reasonable.

 
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Jeremy Steward
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I knew I shouldnt have used the "O" word.

Anyway, I dont think the game is broken, Ive been playing it as is since release and still really enjoy it.

I just feel that IH is too strong, especially in the endgame since it is relevent even against the strongest guns and the fact that it is flat out better than all other defences in all situations(except against mass missiles when you need both IH and Shield). Back before release during the designer diaries, they talk about how AMC was the counter against a lot of hull, but it was never really realized.

My variant is as much to make the game more dynamic by making things like shields and shard hull more relevant by making a situation where they are more viable than just IH. And not simply buffing AMC (because, yes the splitter does that just fine)

I do have ROTA.

Antimatter splitter is great, but because it is a rare tech it doesnt provide that counter that IH needs imo.

Sentient Hull is okay, great in the early game but cant compare to IH in the late game. The problem right now is having an odd number of hull points is terrible. By introducing a weapon that does an odd number of damage, this tech is better.
 
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neko flying
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Deadwolf wrote:
The problem right now is having an odd number of hull points is terrible. By introducing a weapon that does an odd number of damage, this tech is better.


Use one or two spare blank counters to make a 3 damage, 3 energy rare tech. Science cost: 9/7. You can either have them roll a different colour of die for 3 damage, or an orange and a yellow die (more powerful), or three yellows (even better).
 
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Peter Bakija
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Deadwolf wrote:
I just feel that IH is too strong, especially in the endgame since it is relevent even against the strongest guns and the fact that it is flat out better than all other defences in all situations(except against mass missiles when you need both IH and Shield).


Huh. I guess I'm not really seeing how it is a problem that Improved Hull means that ships can survive a few rounds of combat, as opposed to being instantly destroyed. There is a concrete limit to how many ships you can have (i.e. 2x dreadnaughts). If they are just always instantly destroyed in combat (due to a lack of improved hull), combat becomes not worth it most of the time. As it stands, Improved Hull means that you can have a dreadnaught with a couple good guns, a power source, an engine, a computer, and 3x Improved Hull. Meaning it is killed by 7 damage. Which is two AC hits. Or 4 Plasma Cannon (or missile) hits. Which seems completely reasonable, for my money.

I mean, ya know, if you like playing with the different Anti-Matter Cannons, go nuts and have fun. I'm just not convinced it is necessary.
 
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Jeremy Steward
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The best defensive answer to ancients is Improved Hull.
GDS? IH
Plasma Cannons? IH
AMCs? IH
Plasma Missiles? IH & Phase Shield

Wouldn't it be more interesting if there was a situation where Phase Shield, Shard Hull, or a single conifold field would be better than improved hull?

That is what I am trying to do here.
 
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Peter Bakija
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Deadwolf wrote:
The best defensive answer to ancients is Improved Hull.
GDS? IH
Plasma Cannons? IH
AMCs? IH
Plasma Missiles? IH & Phase Shield

Wouldn't it be more interesting if there was a situation where Phase Shield, Shard Hull, or a single conifold field would be better than improved hull?

That is what I am trying to do here.


Improved Hull is cheap and easy to get ahold of. It is the basic default of worthwhile ship design. Phase Shield is occasionally a good thing to use in conjunction with Improved Hull for basic ship defense.

I don't really see Improved Hull as a defensive answer. It is simply something you generally need to make viable ships. Just like Neutron Bomb.
 
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Improved Hull isn't Overpowered.

That being said, it is a problem that there aren't any readily-available alternatives to Improved Hull. Getting shielding with equivalent defensive value requires far more investment in actions, resources and/or ship part slots.

The only alternative, really, is spamming interceptors (to preserve at least some firepower after taking a few hits) or avoiding combat altogether, both of which come with more than a few other problems.

If there were more copies of the tech available, that might mitigate the problem, but otherwise I don't really see the answer.
 
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