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Sparta versus Athens» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rules Problems rss

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Steven Apergis
United States
Virginia
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I have discovered a serious gaff with the game. I tried to submit a post about it but it apparently violates some "community' rule and I was not allowed to do so.

Edit: See below message dated 22April2014.
 
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Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
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bassoon1946 wrote:
I have discovered a serious gaff with the game. I tried to submit a post about it but it apparently violates some "community' rule and I was not allowed to do so.


Could you elaborate?
 
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Steven Apergis
United States
Virginia
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I will try one more time.

The problem is with the victory conditions for the Archidamian War Scenario.

After the final turn of the scenario (year 422), the Athenian player rolls two dice. If the result is less than the Athenian prestige level, Athens has wins the scenario. If the die roll is equal to or greater than the Athenian prestige level, Sparta has wins the scenario.

So if at the end of the game, if the Athenian's prestige level is only 4, Athens wins on a roll of 2 or 3.

I verified that this is correct with Decision games at the ConsimWorld website.

I have discussed this with members of two war gaming groups that I play with. We feel that even if there is historical justification for this, these conditions are too arbitrary and capricious for our tastes. We realize that in a close game the results may hinge on a single die roll, but this is too much.

(Note: This time the above was accepted. I discovered that the site did not like the one of the fancy characters I was using and rejected the post. When I eliminated the offending character it went through.)
 
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Jon Karlsson
Sweden
Linköping
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Can prestige go below 2 or above 13?
 
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Steven Apergis
United States
Virginia
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It appears that this can occur. The prestige level could be pro-Spartan at the end of the game which would be an automatic victory for them.

So it appears that if the final prestige level is 2 or less for the Athenians or Pro-Spartan, it would be an automatic victory for the Spartans. If the final Athenian prestige was 13 or more, it would be an automatic victory for them.

I have not played the game so I have no idea how frequently that this could occur.

If people play this and it works I would be the first to be interested in hearing this.

My suspicion is that if two players are playing the game, the final prestige is three for Athens, if the Athenian player rolls snake eyes, the Spartan player is going to be very unhappy. yuk
 
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JJ Tee
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Perhaps, it should modified that if Athens prestige level sinks to a really low level...maybe < 5, Sparta wins the game.
 
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Lawrence Hung
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Wan Chai
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What scratches me is that the rules didn't define what is pro-Athens and pro-Spatran prestige level and there is no marker for this and the adjustment on the prestige level track. On the othe hand, I can understand the scenario victory condition in the historical context that Athens have to stretch the war out as gaining prestige and opinion of the classical world. When a snake eye is rolled ans Athens rolled on that low prestige, it means Sparta wasn't really hard enough to prevent Athens from claiming the victory, even though in fact it was Persia winning the war in the shadow, as both powers have been substantially weakened. I am more concerned with the victory condition in the campaign game though as it doesn't say whether Sparta actually wins the war if Athens fails to achieve its victory condition, i.e. Athens captured Syracuse but The prestige level is pro- Sparta, assuming it means that the Sparta prestige level is higher than that of the Athens.
 
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Steven Apergis
United States
Virginia
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^^^^^
I did locate a "Prestige" counter that was pro-Athens on one side and pro-Spartan on the other.

 
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Lawrence Hung
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Wan Chai
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Does ravage count as siege? Does ravaging end campaign activity of the leader?
 
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Ted Garland
United States
California
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Steven,

I agree with your criticism of the Archidamian War scenario. I also would hate to play a game, then have victory be dependent on a single die roll. I would suggest you use the following victory conditions for the Archidamian War Scenario:

If the prestige is 8 or more pro-Athens, then Athens wins the game.
If the prestige is 6 or less pro-Athens, then Sparta wins the game.
If the prestige is 7 pro-Athens, then the game is a draw.

Be aware that the rules that I submitted for the game were changed significantly during the development of the game. The vast majority of the changes made during development were beneficial to the game; but a few of them introduced historical inaccuracies, so I am in the process of revising the rules to make them more historically accurate.

I want to post primarily in one forum, and there is already a significant discussion on the CSW Forum, so I would prefer to focus my attention there. If you are still interested in the game, I would encourage you to visit the game's forum there to check out some other criticisms of the game and to see some of the changes that are already being implemented. Also, please add any other criticisms you have of the game, so that they can get consideration as well. I can't guarantee that the changes will turn out entirely to you liking, but I will consider all criticisms of the game.

Ted Garland
Sparta versus Athens Game Designer
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Ted Garland
United States
California
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Lawrence,

Pro-Athens and pro-Sparta is defined in the Prestige Adjustment Table on the game map.

That's a good catch about the Campaign Game victory conditions. The victory conditions came from the game developer, so he would have the final word. But I would suggest that if the campaign game ended with Syracuse captured by Athens and a pro-Sparta prestige, then it would be a draw.

Ravaging does not count as a siege, and ravaging does not end the campaign activity of a leader.

Ted
 
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Steven Apergis
United States
Virginia
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Thanks. I have been following the discussions at consim as well.
 
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