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Subject: Number of sets for playset. rss

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Miki Allen
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With 146 different cards in the set, I suspect each base set will come with only 1 copy of each card. That means buying 4 base sets for a playset. Here's hoping for a just the cards set.
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glen.
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Says base will come with 286 cards, so it will likely come with multiples of many cards. I'd guess you'll need less than four copies to have four of everything. Maybe two?
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Davido
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outfit homes are 1x and most dudes n deeds are 1x (although w/ the new casualty rules, you may want to run multiples). Factor those out, and figure that most 'clutch' cards (e.g. actions and goods/spells) will most likely be 2x. So two base sets should be plenty to go around. Also note the 4x of a suit/value limit so it is not as onerous as in the base game.
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Luke Stirling
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thesmallman wrote:
Says base will come with 286 cards, so it will likely come with multiples of many cards. I'd guess you'll need less than four copies to have four of everything. Maybe two?

The only options, arithmetically are one, two, or four, and we know from the card count that you'll need more than one set to have four of every card. If I were to guess, I's say there's good odds that you would need four base sets if you want four of all the unique dudes and such. But that is only an issue if there is a compelling reason to run four of one or more of a specific dude in a competitive deck.

Done right, I think it's pretty reasonable to expect that two base sets will suffice for all but the most obsessively completionist, and hopefully with minimal wastage in terms of the number of cards that you end up with 5+ of.
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Bithlord Fake
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From the perspective of a returning player who likes the LCG style of releases:

I will be happy if I cna buy just one.
I will be disappointed if I have to buy two, but can live with it.
If I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.
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Tom
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Quote:
f I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.



Slow down the hyperbole train there bud. I don't want to buy 4 copies either, but 4 copies will probably cost about as much as 1 booster box of a certain popular CCG.

Good luck getting a playset of cards with 1 booster box.
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FinalPhalanx wrote:
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f I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.



Slow down the hyperbole train there bud. I don't want to buy 4 copies either, but 4 copies will probably cost about as much as 1 booster box of a certain popular CCG.

Good luck getting a playset of cards with 1 booster box.


You think a core set will be $30 retail?
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Tom
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Bithlord wrote:
FinalPhalanx wrote:
Quote:
f I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.



Slow down the hyperbole train there bud. I don't want to buy 4 copies either, but 4 copies will probably cost about as much as 1 booster box of a certain popular CCG.

Good luck getting a playset of cards with 1 booster box.


You think a core set will be $30 retail?


I assume they will be around the same price as the FFG LCGs give or take.
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FinalPhalanx wrote:
Bithlord wrote:
FinalPhalanx wrote:
Quote:
f I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.



Slow down the hyperbole train there bud. I don't want to buy 4 copies either, but 4 copies will probably cost about as much as 1 booster box of a certain popular CCG.

Good luck getting a playset of cards with 1 booster box.


You think a core set will be $30 retail?


I assume they will be around the same price as the FFG LCGs give or take.


So $39.95. Which, in retrospect, isn't that bad. The feel of having to buy four boxes for a playset is a lot worse than the actual bite on my wallet I suppose.

I probably still wouldn't buy into it at that point because I dislike the distribution enough to not be worth it, but I'm not as upset about it. The big draw of the ECG format (for me personally) is in *not* having to buy the same thing multiple times to get what I need. Giving only some of what you need is like only giving a chess player 1 knight, rook, and bishop and saying "well you can just use pawns in their place". Which, sure, you could still play a game of chess with that. But you'll get rolled every time buy someone who has equal skill and all the pieces.

I don't have to buy Settler's of Catan four times in order to get all the roads needed to play a game. I don't have to buy Monopoly four times to get enough houses to play a full game. Why is this different, just because it uses a cheaper, more readable replicated medium for the game pieces?

I math'd/logic'd out the spoilers and the following seems likely:

If there are two jokers, and we get one of each, one core set would be exactly half of a complete playset with the following.
1 of cards 1-4 (homes)
1 of cards 145, 146 (Jokers - regular and Deaths head? Fools? new?)
2 of cards 5-144 (other cards)
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Janne Jaakola
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You don't need 4x everything (or 16x to use with all 4 factions).
I'll probably get 2 boxes to have more deckbuilding options for all 4, but that isn't necessary. Even 1 box would be enough to have casual fun.

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Bithlord Fake
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adhuin wrote:
You don't need 4x everything (or 16x to use with all 4 factions).
I'll probably get 2 boxes to have more deckbuilding options for all 4, but that isn't necessary. Even 1 box would be enough to have casual fun.


I see this a lot, but I'm not sure how its any different from saying "you don't need all the roads for Cattan to have casual fun." Or from saying "you don't need all the white rooks/nights/bishops for a white chess player to have casual fun".

I know that the game is "functional" without all the pieces. I still want to be buying all the pieces when I buy the game.
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Janne Jaakola
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Bithlord wrote:
adhuin wrote:
You don't need 4x everything (or 16x to use with all 4 factions).
I'll probably get 2 boxes to have more deckbuilding options for all 4, but that isn't necessary. Even 1 box would be enough to have casual fun.


I see this a lot, but I'm not sure how its any different from saying "you don't need all the roads for Cattan to have casual fun." Or from saying "you don't need all the white rooks/nights/bishops for a white chess player to have casual fun".

I know that the game is "functional" without all the pieces. I still want to be buying all the pieces when I buy the game.


LCG: Or living Chess Game. Your team has 16 models, you can have up to 4 of each piece + unlimited rooks, but basic set only has 1-offs, 2-offs and way too many rooks. Seriously, who wants any of them?

And the Settlers of Catan doesn't have all thing you "need". It has zillion add-ons, variants and like, which aren't included in the bare-bones game. Granted, you don't usually buy the basic set more than once, unless you really want to build more than 6 villages or 4 Cities. Or just alter the mix of terrain used in game.

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glen.
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Bithlord wrote:
FinalPhalanx wrote:
Bithlord wrote:
FinalPhalanx wrote:
Quote:
f I need to buy four to get a playset? They can go jump in a lake for all I care. At that price point, they may as well just release it in the traditional CCG style.



Slow down the hyperbole train there bud. I don't want to buy 4 copies either, but 4 copies will probably cost about as much as 1 booster box of a certain popular CCG.

Good luck getting a playset of cards with 1 booster box.


You think a core set will be $30 retail?


I assume they will be around the same price as the FFG LCGs give or take.


So $39.95. Which, in retrospect, isn't that bad. The feel of having to buy four boxes for a playset is a lot worse than the actual bite on my wallet I suppose.

I probably still wouldn't buy into it at that point because I dislike the distribution enough to not be worth it, but I'm not as upset about it. The big draw of the ECG format (for me personally) is in *not* having to buy the same thing multiple times to get what I need. Giving only some of what you need is like only giving a chess player 1 knight, rook, and bishop and saying "well you can just use pawns in their place". Which, sure, you could still play a game of chess with that. But you'll get rolled every time buy someone who has equal skill and all the pieces.

I don't have to buy Settler's of Catan four times in order to get all the roads needed to play a game. I don't have to buy Monopoly four times to get enough houses to play a full game. Why is this different, just because it uses a cheaper, more readable replicated medium for the game pieces?

I math'd/logic'd out the spoilers and the following seems likely:

If there are two jokers, and we get one of each, one core set would be exactly half of a complete playset with the following.
1 of cards 1-4 (homes)
1 of cards 145, 146 (Jokers - regular and Deaths head? Fools? new?)
2 of cards 5-144 (other cards)


You missed at the top where I mentioned the box includes 286 cards. Which, if the unique number is around 150 means we're seeing a lot of doubles. Perhaps even a few triples or quads. Like, I'd suspect we'll get 4-8 jokers in the box -- enough to play for 2-4 players. I also think they're only going to include single copies of quite a few unique characters.

Two things to think about: 1. The deck construction on this game is massively different. Not only can you include only four of a single card, but you can only include 4 of any one card of the same suit or value. Which (speculation) is likely because of a much smaller card pool, but works out because often that means we won't need four copies of each thing, we'll need less because other cards we want to include have the same suit/value.

Yes, could you use four copies of each dude? Sure. Will there be instances where having four might be better? Sure.

2. Your chess analogy is a bit off: you can't play a game of chess without two rooks. I know you're being hyperbolic, but it's an unfair analogy. Oddly, I think your Catan example is dead on. With Catan, they sell the 5-6 player expansion for that game, so if I have a need different than the one they set out, you can buy it additionally. I suspect many, maybe even most people will pick up the Doomtown box, buy some expansions, and never bother to pick up a second box because they play with a few buddies at home and feel fine with the cards it came with. Your need, like the guy who needs the 5-6 player expansion, is bigger. Perhaps because your goal is to play competitive, or perhaps because you're a competist.

I only play one of FFG's LCGs, but have a lot of friends who play more. Folks who play causally tend to think the idea of buying multiple cores is silly. Folks who play competitively, or are completists need three copies so they have three copies of the core rares. Fine. But, that's not everyone.
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Janne Jaakola
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One more thing. You'll never have "enough" cards, unless you limit yourself to a single deck. A Card like Jackelope Stampede*, I could easily use 8-12 copies. (2-3 for each deck ) Somehow I don't think I'll get that many of them, even from 2 starter sets. So I'll have to make do with "lesser" cheatin' cards.

*Hypotetically. No one knows if the game has it or similar card.
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Duncan Idaho
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thesmallman wrote:
Folks who play causally tend to think the idea of buying multiple cores is silly. Folks who play competitively, or are completists need three copies so they have three copies of the core rares. Fine. But, that's not everyone.


I think it has more to do with how people view them. Those who look at them as card-based, expandable board games think multiple copies is silly. Those who view it as a CCG with a different distribution model don't.
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Richard A. Edwards
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Idaho11 wrote:
thesmallman wrote:
Folks who play causally tend to think the idea of buying multiple cores is silly. Folks who play competitively, or are completists need three copies so they have three copies of the core rares. Fine. But, that's not everyone.


I think it has more to do with how people view them. Those who look at them as card-based, expandable board games think multiple copies is silly. Those who view it as a CCG with a different distribution model don't.


Exactly. Perhaps it's too much to want one game to be both things, but as a casual player who is board game oriented, I hope one copy of any game is enough for a fun experience.

I think if a single set is fun and engaging AS IS, then there's a better chance board gamers like me or casual new players will get hooked and want expansions.

If multiple copies are required to start with in order to enjoy a game then you're raising the hurdle to get involved and will lose a lot of casual players.
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Bithlord Fake
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SirRoke wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
thesmallman wrote:
Folks who play causally tend to think the idea of buying multiple cores is silly. Folks who play competitively, or are completists need three copies so they have three copies of the core rares. Fine. But, that's not everyone.


I think it has more to do with how people view them. Those who look at them as card-based, expandable board games think multiple copies is silly. Those who view it as a CCG with a different distribution model don't.


Exactly. Perhaps it's too much to want one game to be both things, but as a casual player who is board game oriented, I hope one copy of any game is enough for a fun experience.

I think if a single set is fun and engaging AS IS, then there's a better chance board gamers like me or casual new players will get hooked and want expansions.

If multiple copies are required to start with in order to enjoy a game then you're raising the hurdle to get involved and will lose a lot of casual players.


I got lost somewhere... are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? It looks like agreeing, but I lost myself in the thread.

On the board game vs. CCG model, issue I think it should be complete enough that I can build a deck and be competitive against any other player who built from their collection without me having to buy a second copy of a box I already bought. It's not about competing within the single box, it's about competing against other players who built their decks from 4 boxes.

In order for me to "play the game" with them I need to buy the same number, or I'm stuck with only one rook/knight/bishop, and they have the full chess set. Or, in catan, I'm stuck with less city's, houses, and roads because I didn't buy a second copy of the game.

It "feels" wrong to me that I have to buy multiple copies to get the whole game.
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glen.
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Bithlord wrote:
It "feels" wrong to me that I have to buy multiple copies to get the whole game.


I mean, I think we can all empathize with wanting to pay less. Right? I don't mean this glibly either. I felt that before finally biting the bullet and buying my second LCG box.

But two quick thoughts on this:

1. Most folks aren't you. I find that for every one person who is interested in competitive play -- or even organized play -- there's several more who are just as happy to have casual play with a significant other or significant friends. They don't have time required to compete.

2. The cost of the core would just be a lot more or be less awesome if it was straight up four copies of everything. There's a massive cost/ROI chart out there, probably on a computer at the AEG Mothership, which says what it costs to make a game. In order for Doomtown to be successful, it needs more than the competitive players, and starts to shed folks who'd be interested in it if it costs more (i.e. had 4x150 cards).

So, in some sense, it stinks to have to pay double but its better than not have it be as awesome.
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Luke Stirling
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thesmallman wrote:
I mean, I think we can all empathize with wanting to pay less. Right? I don't mean this glibly either.

I honestly have a different major concern. For me it's far less about price than it is about waste. If I'm buying and entire boxed game and throwing 95% (by weight) in the bin, then I get rather uncomfortable with the situation. It can become enough of a barrier that if a 3rd and 4th box are required to remain competitive in a tournament environment, that will probably keep me from participating. I realise this is irrational for a number of reasons. Mainly;

1. There is far more waste involved at the production level making a select product for a tiny audience than there is if that minority instead just buys a bunch of copies of the mass-market product and tosses a whole lot of excess materiel out. This is one of those out of sight, out of mind things, where I would be ignorant of the waste created by the company making a unprofitable product. So instead, I have to convince myself it's okay that the company producing the game not take a hit in making a product specifically targeted at their hardcore fans, as that product would entail far for waste than I would be comfortable with were it actually transparent to me.

2. Any waste produced by my purchase of multiple LCG core sets pales in comparison to the absurd number of cards I've thrown into the recycling bin back in my CCG days. I instead compare things to my current lifestyle, where I am very cognisant of excess packaging and other waste. But in the grand scheme of my life, tossing out a stack of cards and counters now is nothing.

Despite all this, I simply cannot bring myself to cross that line and buy copies of a game where I know I'm throwing a large proportion of it out. I'm very much looking forward to the re-release of Doomtown no matter what. I intend to buy a copy for me, and a copy for my wife, so that we can both deckbuild freely. If I can also mix those two sets together to build a deck for my local tournament scene, then I am very likely to participate there too. But if I'm consistently outclassed by decks running 4 copies of cards I don't have, then I'll limit my play to social-only.
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thesmallman wrote:
Bithlord wrote:
It "feels" wrong to me that I have to buy multiple copies to get the whole game.


I mean, I think we can all empathize with wanting to pay less. Right? I don't mean this glibly either. I felt that before finally biting the bullet and buying my second LCG box.

But two quick thoughts on this:

1. Most folks aren't you. I find that for every one person who is interested in competitive play -- or even organized play -- there's several more who are just as happy to have casual play with a significant other or significant friends. They don't have time required to compete.

2. The cost of the core would just be a lot more or be less awesome if it was straight up four copies of everything. There's a massive cost/ROI chart out there, probably on a computer at the AEG Mothership, which says what it costs to make a game. In order for Doomtown to be successful, it needs more than the competitive players, and starts to shed folks who'd be interested in it if it costs more (i.e. had 4x150 cards).

So, in some sense, it stinks to have to pay double but its better than not have it be as awesome.


It's not about paying less, it's about feeling lied to. When I buy a board game, I assume that everything I need to play the game is included. If the game is playable for 2-4 players there will be sufficient materials for 4 players to play the full game, not a reduced capacity version of the full game.

The "allure" of ECG's over CCG's is precisely that. If I buy the basic set I have all the materials to play the full game. Not half the materials to play the full game.

It's even more deceptive when every other product in the line contains a full playset. Why do I need to buy the "core" set 2,3 or 4 times?, when every other set in the line comes with a full set?

Imagine if you bought Catan, but it only came with half the roads/cities/settlements of each color. In the rules it's made clear that you only have half of them and have to buy a whole second set of Catan in order to have the full game. Every single person who bought it would be clamoring for the producer's head on a pike. The fact that the game materials are printed cardboard rectangles, instead of fun shaped wood blocks, makes no difference.

Would I rather pay $60 or $80 to get a full set then $30 or $40? *Yes*. If that is how much the game costs, so be it. Don't sell me half a game and tell me it's so I can spend less money if I want to.
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fightcitymayor
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It feels like just recently we were fighting over ye olde cardde distribution modelle.
Oh wait, we were:
Because the discussion never dies

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fightcitymayor wrote:
It feels like just recently we were fighting over ye olde cardde distribution modelle.
Oh wait, we were:
Because the discussion never dies


Perhaps it never dies because enough people don't like the way its done currently?

In all honestly, I think its done this way because thats how FFG started doing it, and not for any other legitimate reason. Just like expandable card games were always CCGs, until FFG realized "hey wait a minute, enough people don't like this model, so why don't we switch it up".


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Bithlord wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
It feels like just recently we were fighting over ye olde cardde distribution modelle.
Oh wait, we were:
Because the discussion never dies
Perhaps it never dies because enough people don't like the way its done currently?

In all honestly, I think its done this way because thats how FFG started doing it, and not for any other legitimate reason. Just like expandable card games were always CCGs, until FFG realized "hey wait a minute, enough people don't like this model, so why don't we switch it up".
I don't disagree, I'm just saying there are X amount of people who think FFG is unfairly padding their profits from the sale of multiple Core Sets, and Y amount of people who don't care and will buy 3x Core Sets anyway, and those variable amounts don't seem to change much. It just ends up being the same arguments repeated for the umpteenth time.

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Janne Jaakola
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I'd dare say that most customers would object to either doubling price of the box or halfing the number of unique cards you get in a box. Even if they'd get more of the same cards.
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For a starter set you need playable decks (rather than a big chunk of cards in multiples of four) if you want to hook new/casual gamers. Not everyone has the time or wherewithal to build decks from scratch, so a Mage Wars-style option to purchase multiples separately caters for all without the wastage.
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