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Summoner Wars: Master Set» Forums » Variants

Subject: Stalemate House Rule rss

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Aaron Larsen
Thailand
Pathum Thani
Pathum Thani
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Anybody see a flaw in this?

1. When a player chooses not to move he/she finishes their turn immediately.
2. The next player can then decide whether they wish to move or not. It that player also chooses not to move the original player gets another opportunity to move.
3. If this player again decides not to move, he/she will take two die and the other player 3 die.
5. The lower roll score then has to move.

I thought about this after Sunderved v Tacullu finished with both players knowing that whoever moved next would effectively lose the game. In the end I moved Sunderved because he just doesn't seem like a guy who would hide behind a wall, but he was unfortunately slain!

Also, a house rule we use is that you can't kill your own unless it is inadvertent because of a ability that causes damage to an opposition as well.
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MGS
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This has been a subject of interest to me since shortly after the game was released and generated one of the most contentious threads I have ever been a part of.

I agree with your concerns. Plaid Hat has gone around this issue by adding a chess clock to tournament matches therefore the player most pressed by time would be forced to move.

I don't have enough chess clocks and actually don't agree with this solution. So, when I organize tournaments, if neither player wants to take the disadvantageous move, I just declare the game a draw.

Realistically, I estimate this happens about 5% of the time. If it is a casual game, I would just make the suboptimal move myself and be done with the match.
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Joe Kundlak
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How about... a tie?
If it is a friendly game, let's play again!
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Caleb
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Seminole
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I think of it this way: if my play results in such a stalemate situation where the first person who moves loses, I deserve to lose and will make that first move

I will try to do better next time. Sadly, I rarely do and tend to lose at this game more than my fair share. But it's still fun!
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michael ray
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I've only played a few games so far, but we've never even gotten close to a tie. Maybe as we learn more strategy besides 'full steam ahead' we'll start to see the potential for these scenarios.
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Aaron Larsen
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Pathum Thani
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Yes...well that competitive streak I guess.

We actually finished a 2 hour game this evening which came down to one player having to destroy walls to get in and attack while the other played a sharpshooter role. I guess it is in our natures not to concede

I have been thinking about a turn limit actually and at the end of the amount of turns the player with the most health points on the board will be the winner.

Just have to work out how many turns a normal game goes for and then add perhaps 8 more.
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Ben Parker
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Elanora Heights
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I've played only about 5 friendly games so far with my friend, but I win most times and I never hang back and try not to move... I think you're doing something wrong.
 
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Alejandro Magno
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Do you think 5 friendly games of experiences really override the feedback of players that play this game for years in tournaments and leagues and have found this a problem. If you want to play me on ios and or vassal doing something, I would be interested in seeing you beating me. Though to be honest is matchup dependant, in some matchups really sitting back and doing nothing will make you lose , in others, is just the best strategy...sadly.
Fwiw, Factions released AFTER master set generally do no tend to generate this kind of matchups, with the very very notable exception of bolvi.
Tundle also completly avoids this kind of matchups.
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michael ray
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bygberbrown wrote:

I've played only about 5 friendly games so far with my friend, but I win most times and I never hang back and try not to move... I think you're doing something wrong.


I also have no issues with it, but we play casually, there def. is a higher level strategy that starts to show up that can cause stalemates with people who are hyper competitive or in a tournament setting. Like the first guy who responded to you.
 
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Ben Parker
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No, I'm saying professional players are foolish. Its no fun if no-one moves and I play games to have fun.
 
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Alejandro Magno
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By that line of thinking no game has a flaw ever, because you can always mentally house rule to not use anything that is broken, anything that is too good or anything that is flawed.
Why designers should even bother to design games well, we just mentally houserule everthing. Street fighter fireballs are too good? well don´t throw them!, Magic, a deck can win on first turn without interaction? well dont use that deck, wow in starcraft Zerlings rush end the game too fast, well don´t rush!.

It´s not the job of the players to design the game , is the designer, players should try to win, and if trying to win is unfun, is a game problem, not player.
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michael ray
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Waterd wrote:
By that line of thinking no game has a flaw ever, because you can always mentally house rule to not use anything that is broken, anything that is too good or anything that is flawed.
Why designers should even bother to design games well, we just mentally houserule everthing. Street fighter fireballs are too good? well don´t throw them!, Magic, a deck can win on first turn without interaction? well dont use that deck, wow in starcraft Zerlings rush end the game too fast, well don´t rush!.

It´s not the job of the players to design the game , is the designer, players should try to win, and if trying to win is unfun, is a game problem, not player.


Don't you have house rules for this very game?
 
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MGS
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The difference is that Waterd uses house rules and criticizes the game (that he loves) for its shortcomings while Bygberbrown seems to indicate that the problem is with how certain players approach the game, effectively alleviating the onus of the design and the game and putting it on the players.

Some games don't have an internal clock. Many of which I have played. Chess, Mage Knight and Summoner Wars come to mind. It is a design feature that we have to accept going in. I don't agree with putting the onus on the player that is not making suboptimal moves in the name of "fun".
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Alejandro Magno
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By houseruling I change the GAME. But when we both sit at the table we both try to win, and understand the rules involved. That is playing the game. That is just very different to a loose subjective rule of ¨I just can´t do unfun things¨ At that moment the game stops being a game and it becomes a toy we are dealing with.
A great part of why people, including me, want to buy GAMES is that we put a value on the system of rules.
I can see how some people see different. Many people value the price of the game on how many components, the quality of the components and the amount of components. And the rule is just a given for free thing. Or is how people see it. When people see if a game is cheap or expensive the value in the quality if it´s components. To me the most important value is the rule system the designer built. And this is the key of the issue. Creating a system of rules, that when players trying their best to win, holds up to an interesting deep game, it´s a VERY VERY hard thing to do, arguable the hardest part of game design. When I buy a game, I´m paying for that.
The moment I have to create my own mental subjective rules for the game to work, it diminish the value the game has to me.
As Ronaldo says, I really love Summoner wars, I can say that right now is EASILY in the top 5 games I enjoy the most, and easily fighting for the first spot. But as all games it has shortcommings and to me this is the worst one.
Yes I create my own set of house rules, but those aren´t subjective thing like ¨don´t do unfun things¨ they try to be very discrete rule that both players agree before the start of the game. And I´m all up for it, but to create it first we should acknowledge it´s shortcoming. I wish the designer or the community both agree in a general rule that solves this shortcomming so we can all play the same game, instead of just shruging and saying ¨just don´t do things in the game that are unfun, and then the game is fun¨ That sentence almost work for any multiplayer game ever and at the same time it doesn´t work.
It´s ok if you tell me ¨well i don´t care about this problem¨ or ¨its not a problem to me because my style, race etc, do not get in this dilemma¨ but do not tell that the problem isn´t there when there is at this point lots of data to back it up. Lately the design of new summoners is solving this by summoners having inevitability in that if you give them infinite time they can perform a proactive unstoppable one turn kill combo or just grind you to death at a safe place. But many of the old summoner do not enjoy that previlege and those are still part of the game and sadly if you play on ios, most of the games.
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