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Subject: One Dimensional Hero Game - My Pros and Cons (A Negative Review) rss

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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
dvang wrote:
Fatesadvent wrote:
Everything in the game focuses on damage.


This is only partially true. Yes, to beat the villians you almost always depend on doing damage to knock his HP to 0 in order to ultimately win. However, there are quite a few heroes whose decks do not revolve around damage. Heroes like Visionary, for example, support the other Heroes with their cards and Powers. Letting other draw more cards, manipulating either the Villain or Environment decks, etc.


Case in point, my daughter and I just finished a 2 player (2 heroes each) game where we won in large part because we were completely able to control the villain deck. For many turns, three of the heroes did minimal damage, but their mastey of the villain deck meant the baddy never got too scary. If you focus on damage only you often set yourself up for a nasty villain event that you cannot prevent. You can do it, making the game a bit of a race, but there are other styles to explore.

It's a strength of the game where simple such a simple system allows for diversity of gameplay.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Thanks for the feedback all. I haven't segmented the pros section because the focus was on the negatives. I typically don't have as much to say about the pros, but I can try expanding it next time.

Just to respond to some criticisms which are valid. I didn't do that much research into the game when I first got it because it was a gift for my friend (I'm more careful about purchases for my own collection whistle). I just saw it was superhero coop, card game and top 100 or so and went and got it. So maybe some of my cons could have been negated with research but I wouldn't necessarily say I was disappointed because I had certain expectations.

I did not go into the game expecting a deck builder (in the style of dominion) or even a campaign mode of any type. I just meant to use that as an example of alternate playstyles or persistent gaming experience this game could have incorporate that might have been nice since there is a somewhat limited villain pool.

I wouldn't say complexity of certain heroes or lack of understanding was an issue for us. Me and my friends have played a good variety of more complicated games. I can't say for certain my friends were playing perfectly, but I was confident in every single one of my moves and I played them without hesitation literally in 10 seconds or less each turn. I always used the ability that would kill the most things as to prevent the most damage to me and my team. Anyways, it's all a moot point since we won all of our matches.

Regarding the game's focus on only damage...sure there are a few other effects about drawing cards, or looking at cards, or recursion from discard or whatever, but my primary point still stands. There is no real secondary resource to strategize around and very few methods to limit the strength of cards (often the player takes damage to compensate for the stronger effect - again just damage/hp oriented). I think as a consequence of this, most cards have similar power levels (to maintain internal balance) and felt very samey to me. Even things like playing two cards per turn or drawing extra cards just leads to do more damage.

As to the design of the characters, I do think they play somewhat differently, but nothing super drastic. They all have damage dealing skills in the 1-3 range for multiple hit targets or 3-5 range for single targets. Just the way they go about it is slightly different.

Also, apologies on the mistake on Legacy's power. I just remember we always had that player go first since it made the most sense to maximize that power for turn 1.

I think we played the enhanced edition. Some card effects had variable numbers depending on the number of players. The key word here is SOME. Playing this with more players simply outweighs the minimal impact those additional effects have (e.g. oh no, I have to take +1 damage from this card this turn, meanwhile this ally of mine has been healing us 1 every turn for the whole game). There is no other form of global scaling that I recall.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Until Iron Legacy starts with H ongoings in play in 5p game and hits you all for 9-11 damage before your first turn
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
I am somewhat surprised by your criticism that the game is one dimensional. Of course (with a few minor exceptions) it is your goal to kill off the villian, but that is simply the goal and not the way the game evolves and feels.

In fact,IMO one of the coolest thing is that the different heroes play very differently, the villians pose very different problems and the environment can in itself drastically change the game.

Naturally this is a card game, so the draw can influence the flow of the game, but nevertheless your complaints about the heroes does leave the impression that the unfamiliarity with the heroes posed a lot of problems (I don't think it matters that you guys excel at different heavy weight games, as this does not ensure perfect play when you actually don't know the heroes).
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Thanks for the review. I love Sentinels, but I think your review is a pretty fair take on what aspects of the game can come off as negatives. Some of your points I don't find that relevant, but this one plain wrong.

Fatesadvent wrote:
Despite being able to customize which villain/location/heroes you use, there is still only four villains (I believe) so once you've gone through those four, the game's replayability drops fairly rapidly.


Each villain is highly replayable in their own right. Depending on the order they play their cards the playing experience can vary a lot. Citizen Dawn, for example can have a brutal start that wipes out all heros hands in the first two turns. Or not. It'll be a very different game, that's for sure. Each villain also has a more difficult advanced mode that you can play. And don't forget that the choice of location and heroes also makes the game very different. I'd wager that just the base game has enough replayability to last ~50 games at least - more than enough for its price.

So, in brief, Sentinels is definitely not a game where you fight a villain once and are then done with it.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:
I did not go into the game expecting a deck builder (in the style of dominion) or even a campaign mode of any type. I just meant to use that as an example of alternate playstyles or persistent gaming experience this game could have incorporate that might have been nice since there is a somewhat limited villain pool.

So your baseless complaints that the game wasn't a completely different genre were really an extension of your complaint about the game having low replay value... when you've played it a grand total of 3 times and are merely guessing that it probably doesn't.

Meanwhile, you put Mansions of Madness in your top 10?

Fatesadvent wrote:
I think we played the enhanced edition. Some card effects had variable numbers depending on the number of players. The key word here is SOME. Playing this with more players simply outweighs the minimal impact those additional effects have (e.g. oh no, I have to take +1 damage from this card this turn, meanwhile this ally of mine has been healing us 1 every turn for the whole game). There is no other form of global scaling that I recall.

Effects that affect "each hero" basically scale themselves. And the scaling doesn't just apply to damage; for example, the number of Citizens needed for Citizen Dawn to flip back scales with the number of heroes, which is brutal in large games.

You say that the scaling doesn't make up for the number of players, and I agree that 3 players tends to be harder, but the difference between having 4 and 5 players is negligible in terms of difficulty because of the scaling.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Mansions of madness is in my top 10 for reasons aside from replay value. I would've mentioned a similar thing about long term replayability for that game too if I was doing a review on it but I'm not.

Anyways that and scalability were listed in minor things for a reason, they're essentially non issue for me. Sorry if they seem inappropriate to you.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:
Mansions of madness is in my top 10 for reasons aside from replay value. I would've mentioned a similar thing about long term replayability for that game too if I was doing a review on it but I'm not.

Anyways that and scalability were listed in minor things for a reason, they're essentially non issue for me. Sorry if they seem inappropriate to you.


While respecting your opinion I'm enough of a fan of the game to be curious if you'd be interested in trying a few more games, perhaps with input from an experienced player, and comparing your imoressions then and now. I understand if 'it shouldn't require that' would still be a valid concern for you.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Yes I'd play again, and it seems likely, my friends like it. My rating was at 5/10, so I'm more indifferent to it. Something like 3/10 is a game I'd refuse to play again.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:
Yes I'd play again, and it seems likely, my friends like it. My rating was at 5/10, so I'm more indifferent to it. Something like 3/10 is a game I'd refuse to play again.


For a challenge out of the core, throw down with Citizen Dawn or Voss. For a dynamic character out of the box I'd say The Wraith, Visionary, and fanatic. The fanatic is largely a DD but has a lot of judgement calls on how hard to push.

Just a couple ideas that may improve your experience.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fates,

thank you for your review. I don't agree with a lot of it, but it certainly made me think, especially as I am about to disagree with both you and many of the others who have posted after you.

And that is the "No Deckbuilding" comment. I think this fails if either you mean generating a great hand from the resources available mechanic (Resident Evil Deck Building Game or Shadowrift say). A lot of the powers in the game are about a character building, or helping another character to build, a powerful combination of cards. Moreso, some characters can also fiddle with the villain's deck to make it less good.

Or, if you interpret deck-building differently, as planning your collection of cards to be as effective as possible, and tweaking it to deal with different opponents (Magic: The Gathering or Netrunner for example) then think on a different scale. Think of all of the hero's cards as a deck Choosing your heroes is an interesting and fun part of the game for me. You can't tweak their individual decks, but you can certainly pick which (and how many) to use.

It seems to me that there are significant deckbuilding elements in the game, but their structure is a bit more freewheeling than in the more structured deckbuilders.

Just my $0.02 mind you. I appreciate others may not agree.

Cheers,

Matt
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fair points although I think playing Absolute Zero as one of the heroes was highly detrimental to your early experience. That guy should come with a label just like controlled substances.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Ronaldo wrote:
Fair points although I think playing Absolute Zero as one of the heroes was highly detrimental to your early experience. That guy should come with a label just like controlled substances.


It was not; people are misunderstanding. My friends enjoyed the game even with him in it, but I simply did not for other reasons(I wasn't even playing AZ). I recognized what I considered flaws of the game and decided based on other factors. Having your hero designed based on one sole card for example is bad design in my opinion (although I recognize there are probably "tutor" cards, and he's not absolutely useless without his armor). If anything, I wanted to play characters more complex but with better design. My opinion still stood after 3 or 4 plays of different heroes.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
Fair points although I think playing Absolute Zero as one of the heroes was highly detrimental to your early experience. That guy should come with a label just like controlled substances.


It was not; people are misunderstanding. My friends enjoyed the game even with him in it, but I simply did not for other reasons(I wasn't even playing AZ). I recognized what I considered flaws of the game and decided based on other factors. Having your hero designed based on one sole card for example is bad design in my opinion (although I recognize there are probably "tutor" cards, and he's not absolutely useless without his armor). If anything, I wanted to play characters more complex but with better design. My opinion still stood after 3 or 4 plays of different heroes.


His entire design is not simply based around that card, sure it's really helpful, but it's not the absolute only thing he can do. It's why he's considered one of the more difficult characters to play.
 
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:

I think we played the enhanced edition. Some card effects had variable numbers depending on the number of players. The key word here is SOME. Playing this with more players simply outweighs the minimal impact those additional effects have (e.g. oh no, I have to take +1 damage from this card this turn, meanwhile this ally of mine has been healing us 1 every turn for the whole game). There is no other form of global scaling that I recall.


You definitely played the Enhanced Edition.

I realize that I am responding to only one of your Con points and that it is in the minor section at that, but there's a point about scaling that I think is interesting: There is already some scaling built in to the game that doesn't rely on the 'H' symbol. In particular, when an attack hit all hero targets, that is already scaled to the number of Heroes.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
I agree that out of the box, SotM is way too fiddly. I highly recommend using an HP tracker and a modifier card, as they greatly improve the game:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/93267/hp-tracker-for-vilai...
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/98524/sotm-modifier-ca...

The HP tracker makes determining the hero target with the highest/lowest/whatever hit points really quick. Meanwhile, the modifier card reduces how many increase/decrease damage tokens you need to hand out, and you don't need to bring out more every time a new target enters play.

Having some way of indicating start of turn/end of turn actions also makes things much smoother. There are tokens for this in the official Extra Token Pack, or the "3D Tokens" by Spiff (which I haven't tried): http://www.spiffworld.com/sotm/printable.cfm
The "Deck Search Sheets" by Spiff are also pretty handy, since players don't have to look through every card of their deck to check what their search card can actually find.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Last night I played Sentinels for the first time and this review matches my initial impressions of the game precisely. I'm more of a deck-building game fan, so Sentinels does not fit me. Maybe further plays would change my opinions some but I also thought that Sentinels felt one dimensional.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:
I wouldn't say complexity of certain heroes or lack of understanding was an issue for us. Me and my friends have played a good variety of more complicated games. I can't say for certain my friends were playing perfectly, but I was confident in every single one of my moves and I played them without hesitation literally in 10 seconds or less each turn. I always used the ability that would kill the most things as to prevent the most damage to me and my team. Anyways, it's all a moot point since we won all of our matches.


Not even going to retread the Absolute Zero tangent, but a Bunker player spending the entire game in recharge mode who has "no reason to change modes" sounds like a lack of understanding.

The basic (and really, the victory point) of the game is damage dealing. You may label it as "one dimensional", but for many of the heroes, building up an engine or combo works like a lot of economical games (I'm a huge fan of Through the Ages as well as Sentinels).

To get the most of out many of the heroes requires knowing what they're capable of, both in your existing hand, and in the deck not yet drawn. Legacy can, in fact, play as Superman. He has the tools to buff out and personally dish out damage, lead the charge and "tank" for the team or play support. It's hard for him to focus on all of those things at once, so it requires concentrating on the role you primarily want to achieve. Wraith can focus on debilitating the villain and environment through judicious use of Stun Bolt and Mega Computer, or she can load out projectile boosts and become the primary damage dealer. Visionary was already brought up as an example of extreme manipulation and control of situations rather than brute force.

Oh, and I'm sure you didn't mean to be contradictory, but I think these two points come across that way:

Quote:
There is no resource management outside of how many cards you have, no positioning/movement, no status effects (stun, poison, confused or whatever) etc.


Quote:
SotM is fiddly and has lots of book keeping. There is a lot of text on most card and a lot of them have persistent abilities. That means you will have to remember to trigger something from about a dozen cards every X phase.


To speak to the first, the basic limitation of "1 play, 1 power, 1 draw" IS the resource management. Is my best course of action to kill that minion with a one-shot, or is it better to take the hit this turn from it in order to boost my later turn with equipment? Can someone else handle that nasty environment over there, or should I use my power to be immune to it this turn? Gee, Citizen Dawn's deck is getting thin and we haven't seen Devastating Aurora yet... maybe we should think about that and not overextend ourselves.

Like a lot of the feedback so far has suggested, a number of the negatives you've brought up really go away with more familiarity with the game. You didn't go into your first game of Through the Ages
and carry out a perfectly balanced economy of actions from start to finish, did you? (If you did, I commend you)

I also agree with the feedback that the game design only improved as time went on and a lot of the expansion Villains, Environments and Heroes are more "multi-dimensional" and interesting to play.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Believe it or not I agree with almost everything said in both sides of this debate. I think it's a great design but not a particularly good game.

It's a great design in its capacity for story generation. I can imagine that just watching AI play all the heroes would be entertaining; comic book authors could get enough plot lines for a lifetime just by playing this game.

But as a game I think it's not quite successful because the decisions required are neither difficult nor crucial. It's usually pretty clear what you should do, and even when there is a less obvious decision to make its effects are usually swamped by the random turn of cards on the Villain's or Environment's turns.

This is one of those games that exist only for the sake of the rules complications. There's nothing wrong with that, of the many reasons people play games the pleasure of narrative is a major one, and this game is a superb generator of intricate narratives.

Caveat: I just bought the Android version last Wed and the half dozen plays with that are all I've had. It's an excellent version, it handles all that tedious bookkeeping, and I don't regret the $9.99 I payed for it although I've already uninstalled it because of the 380MB footprint. But I'm sure I'll reinstall in the future and give it another go.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
I totally agree with this review. Spent $11 for ios version based on hype and I regret it. This was way overpriced. I am already done with it after four games. This is a three dollar game at best. Got bored quickly as it was always the same thing. And games are way too long for what you get out of it. I could be playing castles of burgandy online in the same time span. The heroes are boring, (weak variations of much better heroes that are all of course, copyrighted) one dimensional, the artwork is blah. I cannot believe this is in the top 100 on bgg. Should be somewhere around 967.

And playing coop against a random deck and no AI? This is LAME.

When I think of the months of playtime I got out of hearthstone for $10 before burnout set in, this game is a joke.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
unhandyandy wrote:
Believe it or not I agree with almost everything said in both sides of this debate. I think it's a great design but not a particularly good game.

It's a great design in its capacity for story generation. I can imagine that just watching AI play all the heroes would be entertaining; comic book authors could get enough plot lines for a lifetime just by playing this game.

But as a game I think it's not quite successful because the decisions required are neither difficult nor crucial. It's usually pretty clear what you should do, and even when there is a less obvious decision to make its effects are usually swamped by the random turn of cards on the Villain's or Environment's turns.

This is one of those games that exist only for the sake of the rules complications. There's nothing wrong with that, of the many reasons people play games the pleasure of narrative is a major one, and this game is a superb generator of intricate narratives.

Caveat: I just bought the Android version last Wed and the half dozen plays with that are all I've had. It's an excellent version, it handles all that tedious bookkeeping, and I don't regret the $9.99 I payed for it although I've already uninstalled it because of the 380MB footprint. But I'm sure I'll reinstall in the future and give it another go.



I disagree on this game having a strong theme or story narrative. It's a very basic card game that involves heroes playing mostly one shot cards. The use of elemental is emotionless, they don't share any distinct, unique differences, just deal more or less damage (instead e.g. lightning stuns enemies, fire sets them aflame doing damage over time, poison weakens them etc). The villains are decently done (although they all share the same mechanism of having two modes, cool the first time but not impressed after that), but the minions that come out all do the same thing, deal X damage to the highest or lowest HP hero...soulless. Environments add a small bit of variation, but they too demand imagination from the player for theme.

When I play this, I don't feel like a superhero doing anything. I feel like a person playing cards to do X damage to whichever enemy is potentially going to hurt me the most. Unlike in something like sheriff of nottingham where role playing comes out naturally. Unlike in something like mansions of madness where the whole game revolves around solving a mystery (or at least looking for clues) in cthulhu inspired settings. Unlike in robinson crusoe where events actually have flavor text as to what is happening.

A good card game with a strong theme is android netrunner. That game's gameplay is almost inseparable from it's theme. In sentinels, I could much more easily reskin it, replacing superheroes with any arbitrary thing (sci fi, western) and it would still work.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Peepser wrote:
I totally agree with this review. Spent $11 for ios version based on hype and I regret it. This was way overpriced. I am already done with it after four games. This is a three dollar game at best. Got bored quickly as it was always the same thing. And games are way too long for what you get out of it. I could be playing castles of burgandy online in the same time span. The heroes are boring, (weak variations of much better heroes that are all of course, copyrighted) one dimensional, the artwork is blah. I cannot believe this is in the top 100 on bgg. Should be somewhere around 967.

And playing coop against a random deck and no AI? This is LAME.

When I think of the months of playtime I got out of hearthstone for $10 before burnout set in, this game is a joke.


Along with Star Realms, this was the best app I bought the whole year. I have played multiple games every single day and have not tried many of the heroes, villains and have not tried the Mars Base yet. It is beautiful to look at and a lot of fun to play. It also made me go back and play the physical game.

It is interesting how our experiences are polar opposite.
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Re: One dimensional hero game - My Pros and Cons
Fatesadvent wrote:

A good card game with a strong theme is android netrunner. That game's gameplay is almost inseparable from it's theme. In sentinels, I could much more easily reskin it, replacing superheroes with any arbitrary thing (sci fi, western) and it would still work.


Could do the same with net runner very easily actually. I'm not bashing Netrunner(Except for being an LCG and wanting lots of money to get 1/10th of the variety in Sentinels but that's the genre not the game ^^), I just think you're making a distinction that doesn't exist.
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Fatesadvent wrote:
SotM is fiddly and has lots of book keeping.


Just like to add, I play this on Steam and it is an absolute joy, but there all the book-keeping is automatic. I can see where the physical game could be annoying as on the Steam version some of the knock-on effects and damage alterations/stacks that unwind are massively complex and can take 30 or 40 clicks to get through. I'd hate tracking that manually!

Quote:
a number of the negatives you've brought up really go away with more familiarity with the game


I 110% agree with this. I've played this non-stop since I got it about a week ago. Probably 30 to 40 games in all. And it is absolutely a game that gets better as you play it more and get more familiar with each deck. It's tactical depth takes a while to fully show, and I don't think I "clicked" with the game till about game #15. Before that I thought the game was extremely over-hyped. But wow, once it did click.....awesome game. And something finally got me away from Magic...
 
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