Lucas Treeble
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(A whole week later...) Hey!

As some of you know, we've been talking about redoing higher quality versions of the fan created expansions, so anyone interested in getting them done via ArtsCow and PrinterStudio wouldn't have to blow them up. The original pieces were made a long, long time ago, back then the resolution they're in seemed acceptable.

I mentioned elsewhere that I started gathering the source images for Egyptian Adventures, and while doing so, there are a few cards that I'd like to see gone/changed. It's been a couple of years that these files have been made available via BGG, so I was wondering if anyone checked then and would like to weigh in on them?

I'll take anything you have to throw at me, really. I designed most of the cards, and as English is not my native language if there are any typos/grammar mistakes, please you are free to nitpick on that as well. The idea here is that we reach a common goal, after all.

I'll start with things that have been bothering me. Right now, I've been totally focused solely on the 50 initial Egyptian Adventures cards, but I'll get through the others soon enough.

- E004: Minor detail, but the screenshot we used for this particular card is actually from the Cambodia levels in TR4. While some of the original cards got away with shifted locations, I don't think this one does. lol There's a late level in TR4 that had an actual armory in it (at least that's what its key was named), might use that instead.

- E029 and E031 use very similar arts. Not sure if this bothers anyone else?

- E031 and E032 have weird values for tests/outcomes and danger ratings. One was designed by me and the other by Croft Storm; we should have discussed this back then but for some reason just moved on.

- E042: This is from an Indiana Jones game I no longer have. Since it's another franchise altogether, I'm not sure what's the policy here on BGG. There's no money involved, of course, but the last I want is getting anyone in hot water.

- E045 and E046: this is an idea I had at the time, never really had any feedback on it. What do you guys make of it? Interesting? Worthless? Should we change their ratings or simply replace them?

I'll keep digging further into these, can probably name a lot more things that should be addressed. Images I've gathered so far can be seen here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bx5EQbtpwtuxZ2I2YVpi...


Hope to read from you fellow TRCCG players soon.

Lucas
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Wulf Corbett
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I'm not so much worried about the source of images or the difficulties, as I am about legibility & balance. A higher resolution should sort out legibility, but white text should be avoided, judging from existing cards!

Also, try and sort out a full ArtsCow deck of 54 cards, even if it includes duplicates (and why shouldn't it, if they're useful!) An Entrance, Treasure room and treasure would help too...
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Sadly I only joined the TRCCG bandwagon a few months ago, so I'm only using the original set and a few Big Guns boosters I'd stumbled upon.

I'd need to look at the set to see if it's something I'd print (and likely need 4 copies of) but am sure it would add value to my existing archive of cards.

Personally I do like the idea of keeping the art consistent with the franchise/areas - it's one of the main things I love about the existing TRCCG franchise. I understand this may be hard to do; but in all realism looking at how few cards require a change it may not be worth the effort?

As the card set is for no monetary gain, I don't see the Indy image beimg a problem, but I'm not sure how hard the LucasArts/LucasFilm banhammer hits down on this sort of thing these days? I know if it were a Games Workshop image or Warner Music Group music you were using for any reason you wouldn't even dare run with it (the latter from experience)

For the most part, there is a small, loyal community here for TRCCG and your contributions will be welcomed with open arms Look forward to seeing the finished product!
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Also, try and sort out a full ArtsCow deck of 54 cards, even if it includes duplicates (and why shouldn't it, if they're useful!) An Entrance, Treasure room and treasure would help too...
I think the three sets have 18 locations each, including entrance and treasure room, plus a Treasure artifact each, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Also, I was thinking about the whole 54-card thing. PrinterStudio also has 54 as default, so I considered two scenarios. One would be expanding the sets with four "fixed" cards, or the other would be offering an array of other cards for deck padding so anyone can pick whichever four they want. When Wagglybean's template becomes available, maybe it might instigate people to make their own cards, so they could use those extra 4-cards for printing whatever they like. I've also thought about combining the three of them into a single set (totalling 140 cards as of now) and then maybe build from there, but as I said, my current focus is making sure the first set is "just right" which is why I'd like some feedback on the cards.

You're definitely right regarding balance though - that's the keyword I managed to completely forget in my opening post lol.


Mohrlock wrote:
I'd need to look at the set to see if it's something I'd print (and likely need 4 copies of) but am sure it would add value to my existing archive of cards.

Personally I do like the idea of keeping the art consistent with the franchise/areas - it's one of the main things I love about the existing TRCCG franchise. I understand this may be hard to do; but in all realism looking at how few cards require a change it may not be worth the effort?


Mohrlock, if you haven't yet, you can download these sets right here from BGG. I think we did a pretty good job with most of the cards in trying to replicate the Precedence "feel". A few of the location cards use concept art instead of ingame screenshots, but that's only because back then we didn't have computers good enough to run said games (Tomb Raider Legend, mostly).

The whole need for a revamp comes solely from the fact those cards are very low-res, not really adequate for printing/assembling, and to be honest I don't mind doing this. Not to mention, my end of the bargain is certainly much simpler than Wagglybean's lol, which is why I'm keeping fingers crossed he'll eventually manage to put these templates together.
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I don 't know how many others have had the old versions printed off, either at home or on ArtsCow, but I made up a deck each from all of them at ArtsCow, and have been playing them quite happily - they were adequate, apart from the character cards, where the font (especially in white) was very very indistinct.
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Your post inspired me to get to work a bit so I've done a bit more on the template today (I have been lazy with it - my apologies). Still getting all the bits and pieces in place, but it is slowly shaping up.

Treeble wrote:

- E004: Minor detail, but the screenshot we used for this particular card is actually from the Cambodia levels in TR4. While some of the original cards got away with shifted locations, I don't think this one does. lol There's a late level in TR4 that had an actual armory in it (at least that's what its key was named), might use that instead.

- E029 and E031 use very similar arts. Not sure if this bothers anyone else?

- E031 and E032 have weird values for tests/outcomes and danger ratings. One was designed by me and the other by Croft Storm; we should have discussed this back then but for some reason just moved on.

- E042: This is from an Indiana Jones game I no longer have. Since it's another franchise altogether, I'm not sure what's the policy here on BGG. There's no money involved, of course, but the last I want is getting anyone in hot water.

- E045 and E046: this is an idea I had at the time, never really had any feedback on it. What do you guys make of it? Interesting? Worthless? Should we change their ratings or simply replace them?


My opinions (note I haven't ever used these cards so this isn't based on having played with them, just my thoughts):
E004: Yes image doesn't quite suit. Don't think I'd have noticed if you hadn't pointed it out, but if you can find something better you might as well.

29&31: Don't look too similar to me, so I say keep them the same.

31&32: Seems a little harsh. I like that 32 gives you another test so you can save yourself. I kinda hate that 31 is instant death straight up on one test without any chance to redeem yourself. Then again, it does have 14 on the depth rating so I suppose it's supposed to be harsh at that level, and by that time you should have some upgrades etc to give you the edge. Not sure - could stay as is I suppose?

42: Can't see it being an issue, but for keeping with the theme I would remove Indy from the pic. Keep the whip in and just whack Lara's face behind it or something?

45&46: Love the idea - keep them! Reminds me of the Wizards Amulet in Dungeonquest.


I will happily have a proper proof read of them at some point when I get a bit more time. I'll let you know if I find anything!
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Just having a quick check for typos/errors for you, just in the Egyptian Adventures so far. Will also post when I'm not sure about clarity of the card description.

E004: "Ready all weapons upon entry". Is this instructional or just for flavour? Not sure if this means I should be doing something? It could mean all weapon discoveries that are unsaved become saved? Or it could mean nothing at all!

E019: "Non-special Egypt location". Does this mean every dry room, or just every egypt location bar the treasure room?

E022: Play when you attack...

E024: Perhaps we could get a better clock pic??? Or better mask that one?

E034: "hit by an attack that causes at least 4 hits". Unsure what this means, I thought as standard failing a test on a dice roll with a creature obstacle does one hit. Does this mean 4 below your safest dice roll? Maybe I'm being thick on this one!

E039: Another with the "special locations". Just treasure room? Perhaps this is already clarified in the rule book?


That's it. There's some really cool cards in there after having looked more closely! Cannot wait to get a deck of these properly printed and into my collection.
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Quote:
E039: Another with the "special locations". Just treasure room? Perhaps this is already clarified in the rule book?


Special Locations are the 'Entrance'/'Starting Location' and 'Treasure Rooms'. Of the top of my head I can't think of any other locations at the moment.
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Quote:
E034: "hit by an attack that causes at least 4 hits". Unsure what this means, I thought as standard failing a test on a dice roll with a creature obstacle does one hit. Does this mean 4 below your safest dice roll? Maybe I'm being thick on this one!


"You cannot kill that which is undead . . ."

You need a weapon that added hits to your base damage.

Check out the Rocket Launcher B101. That baby should deal out enough sweet, sweet damage to take down E034.

Quote:
E019: "Non-special Egypt location". Does this mean every dry room, or just every egypt location bar the treasure room?


Anything with "Egypt Location" in the black bar (location identifier) between the Danger and Search ratings that doesn't have Special Location: Starting or Treasure Room in effects text.
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Yeah forget my special location comments, I was just looking at my TR collection this morning and realised that if they are special locations, they literally say "Special Location" on them. I notice it is the same in the Egypt deck too, so ignore my two points on that subject. whistle

wrrlykam wrote:
Quote:
E034: "hit by an attack that causes at least 4 hits". Unsure what this means, I thought as standard failing a test on a dice roll with a creature obstacle does one hit. Does this mean 4 below your safest dice roll? Maybe I'm being thick on this one!


"You cannot kill that which is undead . . ."

You need a weapon that added hits to your base damage.

Check out the Rocket Launcher B101. That baby should deal out enough sweet, sweet damage to take down E034.


Ahh that explains it. I seriously need to start my Big Guns collection then! surprise
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I think Uzi is the biggest hitter in the Premier set and that can't guarantee to take down the Egyptian Jason Skellie.
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How many weapons would do 4 points damage? It's not reasonable to have a monster unbeatable except by a scant few limited availability weapons. In fact, I would say a deck should come complete with the solutions to all it's own problems, even if only one such solution.
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
How many weapons would do 4 points damage? It's not reasonable to have a monster unbeatable except by a scant few limited availability weapons. In fact, I would say a deck should come complete with the solutions to all it's own problems, even if only one such solution.


I don't know, I'm torn. I'm sure I read that there's a dinosaur in Big Guns who can't be beaten at all, and that this was an actual design choice.

When you meet a creature you can't beat, you aren't locked into battle and can always move away and find another path. That's a solution in itself, isn't is?
 
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wagglybean wrote:
I don't know, I'm torn. I'm sure I read that there's a dinosaur in Big Guns who can't be beaten at all, and that this was an actual design choice.
Possibly, but was that a good choice? It's not like the game doesn't tell you in advance - you can easily calculate if you have no hope of winning at all, so that card is essentially an automatic win for the player - or a completely wasted card for solo play.
Quote:
When you meet a creature you can't beat, you aren't locked into battle and can always move away and find another path. That's a solution in itself, isn't is?
But if the card is unbeatable, that's not a choice at all. It's just placing an impassable location on the map. Worse yet, if it is passable, but only with specific weapons not included with the deck - in which case you're creating a situation where the richest player (able to buy more cards & eventually get the one that's needed) wins, which is the worst part of the whole CCG idea.
 
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
How many weapons would do 4 points damage? It's not reasonable to have a monster unbeatable except by a scant few limited availability weapons. In fact, I would say a deck should come complete with the solutions to all it's own problems, even if only one such solution.


Most of the Big Guns weapons will be able to take down E034.

Nothing Prem and SWW add much more than +1 hit damage and or a +1 to the roll.
 
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
But if the card is unbeatable, that's not a choice at all. It's just placing an impassable location on the map. Worse yet, if it is passable, but only with specific weapons not included with the deck - in which case you're creating a situation where the richest player (able to buy more cards & eventually get the one that's needed) wins, which is the worst part of the whole CCG idea.

From a true CCG perspective yes I definitely agree, but I don't know about you but as I'm the only one of my friends likely to have any TR cards, I'm pretty certain we will always play with one big draw pile, meaning anyone could get the solution if I have the card and nobody if I don't. Which is a bit more fair I suppose.

But I don't know, there are only 50 cards in the set so if Treeble wanted to, he could always add in an extra card or two that are higher level weapons, or even modify the card to have another criteria for defeating the enemy. Perhaps flooding the location will also kill it/make it inactive???
 
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
wagglybean wrote:
I don't know, I'm torn. I'm sure I read that there's a dinosaur in Big Guns who can't be beaten at all, and that this was an actual design choice.
Possibly, but was that a good choice? It's not like the game doesn't tell you in advance - you can easily calculate if you have no hope of winning at all, so that card is essentially an automatic win for the player - or a completely wasted card for solo play.
Quote:
When you meet a creature you can't beat, you aren't locked into battle and can always move away and find another path. That's a solution in itself, isn't is?
But if the card is unbeatable, that's not a choice at all. It's just placing an impassable location on the map. Worse yet, if it is passable, but only with specific weapons not included with the deck - in which case you're creating a situation where the richest player (able to buy more cards & eventually get the one that's needed) wins, which is the worst part of the whole CCG idea.


I don't remember any unbeatable dinos only tough ones. Trex is the biggest Dino which has 11 life. The Dragon has 12 life. You need to be packing for bear against those guys, and the BG expansion Rocket Launcher (+6 hits) and M16 Assault Rifle (+ your Fight value of hits) and can take em down in two or three shots. You only have to beat the test or survive the fail once per turn. This is the reason why these cards were rares, to prevent over use. It is after all a collectable card game.

Remember than Egyptian Adventures is an expansion and adds to the existing card pool. Decks come from the pool of cards. Solutions should be available from the total card pool (expansions included).
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wagglybean wrote:
E004: "Ready all weapons upon entry". Is this instructional or just for flavour? Not sure if this means I should be doing something? It could mean all weapon discoveries that are unsaved become saved? Or it could mean nothing at all!

E034: "hit by an attack that causes at least 4 hits". Unsure what this means, I thought as standard failing a test on a dice roll with a creature obstacle does one hit. Does this mean 4 below your safest dice roll? Maybe I'm being thick on this one!


Waggly, regarding E004, it means you're reloading the guns. I'd have to go back to the source to confirm, but all weapon cards had to be "readied" with an ammo card, then they'd be tapped when used once and flipped after the second use - requiring another ammo card discovery to be readied again.

Regarding E034, I concur with most points raised here actually. The card already provides an alternate solution but it might still not be good enough (a Pit trap in the same location). We tried to replicate the same experience from the game, which means it's not going to leave you alone until you blow it to heaven come OR shoot it off a ledge.

I'm a bit rusty on the TRCCG rules and such, but is there an alternate we could have this creature be "defeatable" but not "removable"? Ie: it has two life, meaning it can be easily defeated, but until a definitive damage is done, it will still recover and have to be faced whenever/if ever the players reenter that room? Flooding the location would also remove the creature automatically, I think that's a standard rule (remove any non-wet creatures from a location once it becomes a wet location)?

I will also add, though, that E092 Revolver would probably work too. It's under the Dark Egyptian Nights but it can be easily switched for the E040 Crossbow, seeing as these custom cards don't really follow the same rarity pattern of the official releases (ie higher card numbers do not necessarily mean better cards). As I think about it, probably that one particular expansion will prove to be the most troublesome to make sure it's balanced, fair and actually working.


Edited to add: the unbeatable dino is actually not an obstacle by itself, but rather a location card obstacle: http://trccg.mahasamatman.com/BigGuns/Gallery/?069

The errata mentions both this case and the other of a creature that can be fought and thus damaged but can't be killed: http://trccg.mahasamatman.com/Events/Errata.HTML
 
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