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Subject: I have no idea what to think about this game. rss

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Greg Lott
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On the surface, this game sounds pretty amazing. And I'm a fan of DriveThru, Vassel, and UndeadViking reviews, and they all, at least to some extent, seem to like this game. However, it appears that everyone else says the rules are awful, and the game is basically unplayable without reading tons of FAQ's. Why didn't Joel/Lance/Tom have any problems with the rules? Here's the real rub:

In my group, I'm basically the guy who buys the games. So there's no "try it before you buy it" and there's no one there to teach me. I have to take the plunge and use the rulebook to learn the game. And I freaking HATE bad rulebooks. Nothing ruins a game for me like a poorly written rulebook. Here's a note to all you wanna be designers. Want me to like your game? Take the time and put in the effort to make a half way decent rulebook. AND make sure the game actually works. Playtest. Anyways, that's just an aside.

On the other hand, I've been negatively effected by anti-hype in the past. I held off trying Zombicide for almost two years because of a few negative posts, which I have since come to believe were completely unfounded. Some of the scenarios are busted as is, and the rulebook is NOT stellar, but the game is a blast. Love it, love it. So... is Myth like Zombicide, and actually a fun game with playable rules? Or is it crap, like many (most?) KickStarter games seem to be.

I'd love to hear from KickStarter non-supporters here. Post-purchase rationalization is a real thing.
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Joel Eddy
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Not for nothing Greg, but I've seen this thrown around a few times that I "didn't have any problems with the rules", more than once on here. A lot actually, even by more than one reviewer in a scatter of places.

I'm only replying to you, because we've had several positive interactions here on The Geek... but I'm really curious if anyone has actually watched my reviews or walkthroughs. I assume they have. I thought I beat the rulebook into the ground TOO MUCH! I tried NOT to bash the rules as much as I actually did, because I really do enjoy the game.

Sorry to side track your thread, but I wanted to at least voice this publicly "somewhere". Maybe it's not necessary, but it's really been rubbing me the wrong way, as I spent several minutes on the rules.

Granted, at the end of the day, it's not a "deal breaker" for me, given that I do think the game is definitely trying something relatively innovative in this genre.

Anyway. I'll probably regret typing this in a week, but please feel free to go back and watch my review and/or playthrough, or even my video blog on board games for video gamers. I'm not naive enough to think you have the actual time to do that. But, I don't understand the couple of comments I've seen that say I've glossed over the rule book issues. That yanks my ire something fierce.

Anyway. I wasn't sure if you were just regurgitating what other false statements were getting out there, or just missed what I said. I do know my videos go on the long side, so maybe folks either skip the intros and review parts or something.
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ferris1971 wrote:
On the surface, this game sounds pretty amazing. And I'm a fan of DriveThru, Vassel, and UndeadViking reviews, and they all, at least to some extent, seem to like this game. However, it appears that everyone else says the rules are awful, and the game is basically unplayable without reading tons of FAQ's. Why didn't Joel/Lance/Tom have any problems with the rules? Here's the real rub:

In my group, I'm basically the guy who buys the games. So there's no "try it before you buy it" and there's no one there to teach me. I have to take the plunge and use the rulebook to learn the game. And I freaking HATE bad rulebooks. Nothing ruins a game for me like a poorly written rulebook. Here's a note to all you wanna be designers. Want me to like your game? Take the time and put in the effort to make a half way decent rulebook. AND make sure the game actually works. Playtest. Anyways, that's just an aside.

On the other hand, I've been negatively effected by anti-hype in the past. I held off trying Zombicide for almost two years because of a few negative posts, which I have since come to believe were completely unfounded. Some of the scenarios are busted as is, and the rulebook is NOT stellar, but the game is a blast. Love it, love it. So... is Myth like Zombicide, and actually a fun game with playable rules? Or is it crap, like many (most?) KickStarter games seem to be.

I'd love to hear from KickStarter non-supporters here. Post-purchase rationalization is a real thing.



As I understand it:

Drivethru adlibbed rules to have fun.
Viking got tons of rules wrong.
Rahdo posted hundreds of questions and then never did a review at all.
Vasel was taught the game by the designers.


I kickstarted, and have not received anything yet, so I cannot give you any opinions.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
On the surface, this game sounds pretty amazing. And I'm a fan of DriveThru, Vassel, and UndeadViking reviews, and they all, at least to some extent, seem to like this game. However, it appears that everyone else says the rules are awful, and the game is basically unplayable without reading tons of FAQ's. Why didn't Joel/Lance/Tom have any problems with the rules? Here's the real rub:

In my group, I'm basically the guy who buys the games. So there's no "try it before you buy it" and there's no one there to teach me. I have to take the plunge and use the rulebook to learn the game. And I freaking HATE bad rulebooks. Nothing ruins a game for me like a poorly written rulebook. Here's a note to all you wanna be designers. Want me to like your game? Take the time and put in the effort to make a half way decent rulebook. AND make sure the game actually works. Playtest. Anyways, that's just an aside.

On the other hand, I've been negatively effected by anti-hype in the past. I held off trying Zombicide for almost two years because of a few negative posts, which I have since come to believe were completely unfounded. Some of the scenarios are busted as is, and the rulebook is NOT stellar, but the game is a blast. Love it, love it. So... is Myth like Zombicide, and actually a fun game with playable rules? Or is it crap, like many (most?) KickStarter games seem to be.

I'd love to hear from KickStarter non-supporters here. Post-purchase rationalization is a real thing.



As I understand it:

Drivethru adlibbed rules to have fun.
Viking got tons of rules wrong.
Rahdo posted hundreds of questions and then never did a review at all.
Vasel was taught the game by the designers.


I kickstarted, and have not received anything yet, so I cannot give you any opinions.


I did notice those things with Viking and Joel, and Vasel's proclamation about the rulebook being "pretty good" makes sense now. I'm sure the rulebook is great if you don't actually have to read it. Also interesting about Rahdo...
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ferris1971 wrote:
Nothing ruins a game for me like a poorly written rulebook.


The rulebook and the cards are some of the worst I've ever seen. You can check the rules out on the Myth website, though that only gives you an idea of how poorly they're organized and written - it's a different level when you have to sit down and actually try to play it with them. You can't check the cards, but they are poor on both clarity and grammar.

The online materials have helped, and checking them out, they're better. They're still not what I'd call "good".

For me, all of these flaws really added up. I haven't sold the game yet (based on one or two positive reviews that insist there's something good in there, like Mathue's - even if the others have me convinced I won't like it), but I keep waffling, and it will most likely end up on the "sell" stack when I put up an auction. I do, however, have a regular RPG group, and that generally keeps my need to crawl through some dungeons in check.

I would say that if dungeon crawls are your thing, you might want to look into this game to see if you can overlook its warts. If you're not a huge fan of the genre and are just looking for something fun, but bad rules are your pet peeve, I'd steer clear.
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Mathue Faulkner
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Rahdo has said that he is still planning on doing his runthrough, but he's waiting until some areas are ironed out. At this point, he's probably just going to wait until the FAQ and new rulebook are complete....
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I missed the Kickstarter, but knew it was coming for a while. I anticipated the purchase, called my FLGS every week to see if they had it, and drove out and bought it as soon as it was in stock.

This game took my #1 favorite spot. But that's just me.

Yes, the rulebook is a gigantic mess. That can't be understated. One of the most important rules in the game is mentioned in a single bullet point, and never referenced nor explained by examples (it's the rule that details the intimate relationship between a Hero's movement during a Hero Cycle and what kind of bonuses they can get from cards), and yet moving groups of enemies, which is probably the easiest thing to understand in this game, takes up 3 pages of examples. There's a good number of things missing explanations in the rulebook (the Poison fiasco, hoo boy) as well. No excusing it.

However, once you trudge through the mire of a rulebook written in the ever so confusing train-of-thought style, this game is entirely playable. Most will say that the game can't be played because the rulebook is bad, and that simply isn't true. The rulebook does do a shoddy job at telling you how to play the game, yes, but it still tells you how to play it.

If you don't plan on utilizing any supplemental material to learn how to play this game (like videos, FAQs, Errata, etc.), then prepare yourself to read this giant rulebook from cover to cover very slowly and very carefully. Then prepare to do it again. Then prepare to do it again while actually setting up boards and creating your own examples to see how it's done. It really can't be overstated how wonky this rulebook is.

That being said, the game is not only a lot of fun, but exceedingly simple. Stupidly simple, to the point that once you do get it, you may start to wonder why it took you so long to learn it in the first place. Once you get a game under your belt, all the complicated and convoluted rules melt away (for the most part), and make way for a dungeon crawler you build yourself as you go.

The game works, so don't worry about that, though it was playtested by less than 20 people. And while the rules and some figures have and detail powers and extra features that don't come in the base set you can find in stores now, it foreshadows upcoming expansions for you to anticipate. For one reason or another, the majority of the naysayers about Myth hate the fact that the designers explicitly state in their rulebook that more is already on the way.

TLDR; Get this if you're a fan of dungeon crawlers and don't mind a good deal more homework to learn a game. If you put in the investment to learn it, Myth pays you back handsomely.
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Newfable wrote:

Most will say that the game can't be played because the rulebook is bad, and that simply isn't true. The rulebook does do a shoddy job at telling you how to play the game, yes, but it still tells you how to play it.


I don't think anyone's every said you couldn't play the game using the rulebook - I think the argument is that you're most assuredly playing it wrong because there are elements that just aren't included in it. Sure, you can fill in the gaps - you might even be right with how you filled them in compared to the intentions - but there are, without a doubt, objectively things that just aren't defined/explained in the rulebook.
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Take what Newfable said, put it in a frame, hang it on the wall by your gaming table, and frakking pay homage to it when you buy and play Myth.

Matthew gets it, and has worded it more perfectly than anything else I've seen. Most especially this:
Newfable wrote:
That being said, the game is not only a lot of fun, but exceedingly simple. Stupidly simple, to the point that once you do get it, you may start to wonder why it took you so long to learn it in the first place. Once you get a game under your belt, all the complicated and convoluted rules melt away (for the most part), and make way for a dungeon crawler you build yourself as you go.


Seriously, I regret that I have but one thumb and some GG to give for this most excellent summation of the game, its primary glaring flaw, and why it's still a very, very good game despite that.
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Idaho11 wrote:
I don't think anyone's every said you couldn't play the game using the rulebook
Actually, I've lost count of the number of people that have said "The rulebook makes this game unplayable." So yes, people have said that.
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eekamouse wrote:
But, I don't understand the couple of comments I've seen that say I've glossed over the rule book issues. That yanks my ire something fierce.
C'mon baby yank my ire...
C'mon baby yank my ire...
Try to set the night on... FIRE!!!

Great... now I'll be singing Doors songs for the rest of the afternoon...
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fightcitymayor wrote:

Great... now I'll be singing Doors songs for the rest of the afternoon...


Mission accomplished.
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mfaulk80 wrote:
Rahdo has said that he is still planning on doing his runthrough, but he's waiting until some areas are ironed out. At this point, he's probably just going to wait until the FAQ and new rulebook are complete....


Yup, still planning on doing it... it always seems like there's just one more thing worth waiting on. Now there's an epically long FAQ to digest, and I'm almost inclined to wait for the rewritten rulebook plus the series of videos they're making.

I have posted elsewhere what I thought about the 10 hours I spent playing (plus the probably close to 30 hours I spent studying the rules and posting/reposting questions...)

Here it is again :

Quote:
For starters, I would definitely laud the game for several things, most notably the wonderful hand-management driven gameplay, the fantastic character uniqueness, the truly co-operative structure of the hero cycle, the high production values (though I would show how my archer and 1 grubber came with a broken arms, acolyte had a broken hand, and a few crawlers were broken off of their bases), and most importantly, the frankly revolutionary quest development system where players craft their own story, and the world evolves over time in response (specifically that the C quest deck evolves and changes, as well as the treasure bag contents). That last bit I'd probably mention wouldn't surprise me if at the end of 2014, it's praised as one of the most innovative new ideas of the year.

So that would be the good, but the bad would be:

The state of the shipping rulebook is unacceptably poor, with vague or completely absent definitions of how much of the gameplay works, and the supplementary materials released to date have errors of their own that can further mislead the player. I would of course add that eventually these issues will be resolved, but that it's been a hugely frustrating ride for me, in spite of how much fun I find the core gameplay to be.

I'd also talk about how much I dislike that while the world evolves around you, your characters themselves do not evolve, but always reset back to their default state (no deck manipulation, no keeping loot) UNLESS you play through the pre-designed story quests, which themselves significantly diminish what makes the core Myth experience so special. I would add that I think it's great that there are semi-prescripted story quests in the box, as I recognize a lot of people would really need them to feel comfortable, but *requiring* that they be played to advance your character doesn't sit well with me at all.

Also I'd talk about how the rules don't address the issue that the game does not come with enough minis, and that you'll regularly run out of them during the course of normal play (or at least, we've found this to be the case in the 10 hours of play we've had so far). Even worse is that the skeleton miniboss spawns skeleton minions, which don't come with the game at all, and the "onslaught mode" is completely unplayable with the core game because of lack of minis. To me, these issues are a big problem, considering how expensive the game is, that it literally comes uncomplete, though there are ways to address it if players are willing to come up with their own house rules (which I find to be a failure of design - that players would have to engineer their own rules to fix shortcomings of production) or use use proxies (we've been using random purple quest tokens) which significantly impacts the overall fun factor of the game.

Also, I'm very worried about the long-term integrity of the rules as I now understand them. This is most notable with the "you can leave a tile any time you want, and the monsters and quests of that tile will stick around and stay active, all overlapping" thing. IMO, this opens up such a huge potential can of worms that over the ensuing years will have to be addressed through myriad patches and rules erratum, I seriously fear for the long term playability of the game (I'd hate to see Myth go the way of Descent 1.0). I appreciate that the stance of the developers is "if you don't like the way it works, change the rules. Be resourceful, we only offer you a guideline, not a bible", but I think that is a stance that puts the onus on the players to do the work and playtesting that should have been done as part of the game's development.
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
I don't think anyone's every said you couldn't play the game using the rulebook
Actually, I've lost count of the number of people that have said "The rulebook makes this game unplayable." So yes, people have said that.


Funny thing about language - you have to interpret it. And almost every one of those threads/people have gone on to say that you can't play the game as intended with the rulebook. Which is true - you have to fill in gaps.

So yes, I was wrong. People have literally said those words. Their meaning, however, is different than the literal interpretation, as almost everyone I've seen has gone on to say.

It's funny how literal people take the language people use on this board, but they're willing to make all types of interpretations when it comes to rulebooks.
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Idaho11 wrote:
I don't think anyone's every said you couldn't play the game using the rulebook
Actually, I've lost count of the number of people that have said "The rulebook makes this game unplayable." So yes, people have said that.


It has been said a lot, but I believe it has always been the case that people mean "unplayable as intended by the designer."

In other words, you can certainly play a game with what you have in the box, but you probably aren't getting everything right.

Whether or not that is a problem for people is another matter entirely.

EDIT - Ninja'd by Idaho. Never mind
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Newfable wrote:
though it was playtested by less than 20 people.


Of which at least one was a dog.
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I'm a 2-time ZCide backer and a Myth backer so take my 2 cents as a 2 cents opinion.

Zombicide is by far, my favorite game. I love blowing away all the zombies with more constantly flowing into the map. I love that I can play it solo or up to ... however many people I want to throw in the game. I love that it's so ripe for tweaking. I love the components, I love leveling up and I love that this game has such an amazing following and future.

Myth is a LOT like Zombicide. The rulebook has gotten pooped on. It's a huge kickstarter. The gameplay is built off of killing hordes of things. The components are amazeballs. It comes with a ton of stuff, and still somehow you can't get enough. Both games are just fun to play. Each game requires you to go through the woods a bit (Myth has a LOT of woods), but on the other side, there's a shining light of a game.

I'm not going to re-iterate what everyone else has said cause they're all right to varying degress, but if you really like Zombicide and you like fantasy settings, you're probably going to really enjoy Myth.

One more thing, make sure you really learn this game before showing other people. Play through at least the first story quest yourself before you invite other gamers to journey with you otherwise, you're going to be constantly checking rules and the group won't enjoy it.

Edit: I thought I'd point out some major differences for anyone that might be scared by the similarities ;)

Myth has an ACTUAL campaign while Zombicide thinks it does. Obviously, the setting, Myth's card play and ZCide's noise mechanics and cars make them quite different. ZCide feels like I'm playing through a solid B-movie while Myth makes me feel like I'm playing through a fantasy nightmare I had when I was 6.
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Snappleman wrote:
The components are amazeballs.


I do want to say that, while I would probably never use the word "amazeballs" outside of quotes (not because it's bad, but because I just can't pull it off), I agree with this sentiment. If you want some great minis, they're in the box.
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Snappleman wrote:


Myth is a LOT like Zombicide.



This fills me with more dread than you can possibly imagine.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Snappleman wrote:


Myth is a LOT like Zombicide.



This fills me with more dread than you can possibly imagine.
I'm in the same boat, but the metaphor was for the Tulgey Woods of rulebooks both games have in common and the quality of components, not necessarily game play.

I think.
 
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I agree with the idea that the rulebook and the way the rules are presented (i.e. the organization of chapters) could have been better. The biggest barrier to learning the game is to try and understand the actual flow of the game. When I read game rules, I am always thinking about how I should actually play in terms of tactics. In other words, the rules are not set up for the player to understand the consequences of his actions. This makes the rules more difficult to understand at first. I don't think the game is unplayable. The games design is novel and therein lies the difficulty. All that being said, this will turn out to be like many other games where the insight will only occur by playing. I am looking forward to playing and learning.
 
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My wife and I played this game for the first time last night, and I also am not sure how to feel about it. What I feel now is a lot of conflicting positive and negative emotions.

My wife liked the game a lot, but then again she didn't read the rules - she had the benefit of me teaching her, which involved no small amount of just fudging it or making stuff up as I went where I could not figure out the correct ruling.

Since then, I've dived into some of the online resources and read the FAQ. The existence of these resources has probably saved my copy from an early trip to eBay, and now I'm seeing that the rulebook is possibly being revised and so are some of the player cards. That's great, assuming you don't have to be a Kickstarter backer to get the corrected prints. Hopefully, MegaCon will take care of their retail customers, too.

Right now, I feel like this is a very salvagable game, and I want to make the commitment to understanding it better and playing it more in the future. I have not seen a lot of fully co-operative dungeon crawlers out there. We like Descent, but that's a competitive game for us and it can foster animosity when things are going very poorly for one side or the other.

Call me cautiously optimistic that I'll have better experiences with Myth in the future. All of the criticisms I've read are valid, and yes, the rulebook is in dire need of on overhaul, but the minis are cool, the gameplay is solid, and there is more to like than dislike for the Mrs. and I. Most encouraging of all, the MegaCon/Mercs guys really seem to care about making improvements. If that continue to be the case, I'll happily give them more of my money.

Appropot of nothing: I really ejjoy your DriveThru review videos, Joel. They are thorough and informative, and I have purchased more than one game on the strength of your evaluation. Keep up the good work!
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Venthrac wrote:
My wife and I played this game for the first time last night, and I also am not sure how to feel about it. What I feel now is a lot of conflicting positive and negative emotions.

My wife liked the game a lot, but then again she didn't read the rules - she had the benefit of me teaching her, which involved no small amount of just fudging it or making stuff up as I went where I could not figure out the correct ruling.

Since then, I've dived into some of the online resources and read the FAQ. The existence of these resources has probably saved my copy from an early trip to eBay, and now I'm seeing that the rulebook is possibly being revised and so are some of the player cards. That's great, assuming you don't have to be a Kickstarter backer to get the corrected prints. Hopefully, MegaCon will take care of their retail customers, too.

Right now, I feel like this is a very salvagable game, and I want to make the commitment to understanding it better and playing it more in the future. I have not seen a lot of fully co-operative dungeon crawlers out there. We like Descent, but that's a competitive game for us and it can foster animosity when things are going very poorly for one side or the other.

Call me cautiously optimistic that I'll have better experiences with Myth in the future. All of the criticisms I've read are valid, and yes, the rulebook is in dire need of on overhaul, but the minis are cool, the gameplay is solid, and there is more to like than dislike for the Mrs. and I. Most encouraging of all, the MegaCon/Mercs guys really seem to care about making improvements. If that continue to be the case, I'll happily give them more of my money.

Appropot of nothing: I really ejjoy your DriveThru review videos, Joel. They are thorough and informative, and I have purchased more than one game on the strength of your evaluation. Keep up the good work!


Card reprints will be available outside the KS,.... But with the card reference document, once you've played the game a bit, you understand how the cards work, and you never have questions about them again,.... That said, I will likely get a set when they are available,....

But they will also have PnP files for the cards available for free "soon", so if you really want to have them, you can print and put in your card sleeves. Most of the types of changes they describe are not major, and already covered in the Card Reference that has been available since before the first shipments.

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Idaho11 wrote:
ferris1971 wrote:
Nothing ruins a game for me like a poorly written rulebook.


The rulebook and the cards are some of the worst I've ever seen. You can check the rules out on the Myth website, though that only gives you an idea of how poorly they're organized and written - it's a different level when you have to sit down and actually try to play it with them. You can't check the cards, but they are poor on both clarity and grammar.

The online materials have helped, and checking them out, they're better. They're still not what I'd call "good".

For me, all of these flaws really added up. I haven't sold the game yet (based on one or two positive reviews that insist there's something good in there, like Mathue's - even if the others have me convinced I won't like it), but I keep waffling, and it will most likely end up on the "sell" stack when I put up an auction. I do, however, have a regular RPG group, and that generally keeps my need to crawl through some dungeons in check.

I would say that if dungeon crawls are your thing, you might want to look into this game to see if you can overlook its warts. If you're not a huge fan of the genre and are just looking for something fun, but bad rules are your pet peeve, I'd steer clear.


I have seen a lot of rules over the years most of which have very long winded rules that require reading, re reading and referencing. Some require programmed learning e.g. Earth Reborn, Starship Troopers, I can see two or three of the guys that posted on here thinking or about to post why did you bother. I bothered because they were good games/ simulations/ fun and complexity is not an issue for me. Squad Leadr , Magic Realm , the longest day. having read all the FAq's and new rules etc for Myth I found most of the game was present in the original with far less errata than some rules a 10th Myth's size.

In recent years most games have short rules and to thir credit most of them still retain a depth of gameplay , Guilds of Cadwallon, however they are more logic puzzles than an immersive adventure.

The rules could have been and maybe should have been better organised but that could be said of 80% of games , hindsight is a wonderful tool.

Many companies with big bucks and years or decades of gaming production still produce awful rules (LOTR the Dice Games) that are almost totally useless.

I am still at loss as to why the same 3-4 posters have to keep posting the same non constructive and IMO inaccurate attacks on this game. All of the accurate parts of their posts could have been gleaned from freely available information on the MYTH KS. Even the need to proxy monsters.

I am not sure what their expectations were or why they feel the need to atatck Myth. Yes mistakes have been made and the base game could be organised diffrently. No secret has been made that it will rquire expnsions in the same way as most of FFG's LCG's need expansions.

It really isn't that bad and has far more promise than most games of this genere. Descent 2 the dumbed down verision of descent is on a roll as far as expansions but it is hardly breaking new ground.

Most will express their disapointment a few times on a game that has not lived up to expectations and don't go out of our way to insult people that have a diffrent opinion. Most can remember you posts and don't need constant repetition on every thread.

@Duncan I suspect you haven't read many rulebooks of this size or scope. The game is clearly fun with good decision points and challenges and it is being developed and improved all the time. Try playing Pathfinder the card game with their first rulebook and card errata and yet that is still classed as a good game, I enjoy it and it takes far more effort than Myth to learn.

I would be interested to what you would call good for a game with this deph of gameplay.

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Matt Daniels
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I can forgive a dodgy rulebook, provided that

1) The authors make an effort to improve the situation by posting FAQs and errata documents, and...

2) They learn something from the experience, and don't make the same mistake with their next game. I'm looking at you, Mercs Recon...
 
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