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Subject: Opportunistic Fire rss

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Tim
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Is it possible to shoot at a unit that has been activated for movement but not actually moved yet?

Yesterday my opponent activated one of his units in order to move it.
I played the Opportunistic Fire card.
His first movement point would have taken him behind an obstacle resulting in my unit losing LoS.

Is it possible for my unit to fire at his when it is still in the space it occupied when it was activated?
Or must it actually have moved physically one space in order for my unit to fire?

I read somwhere that movement can be null(zero) so I'd say it is possible.

Since I am not sure and my opponent didn't agree I thought I'd ask.

regards Tim
 
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Burkhard Hannig
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We had the same situation today, we played that it is possible.

 
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Phil McDonald
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A unit is activated for movement OR action.

In all wargames I have ever played, opportunity fire is allowed when a unit actually moves, not because you think that it might. Your units would be unaware of an intention to move until and unless it actually happens.
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Allan Doyle

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As you must choose the type of action, I feel once you have decide to Move it is eligible for Op Fire.

Now if you wait to see where the unit is being moved to I'd say that its too late.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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im withh phil on this, a unit needs to have actually moved before you can play the opportunistic fire card on it.
the idea is that the units movement puts it into a spot where you can fire at it (exposing itself), so as long as the unit doesnt take a step it hasnt yet exposed itself to allow firing on it.

the mention of the movement that can be null only means that you can use the benefits of a move action, like being able to flip a unit for its ability, without needing to leave its current location.
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Tim
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Well, I guess it makes sense the way you look at it.

I thought along the lines of preventing them from moving but
I completely agree with your explanation. Wishful Thinking.

Maybe a better wording would have been "if a unit moves into LoS".

I don't know, probably it's just me not having played many a War Game yet.


Thanks a lot!
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T Hass
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This problem surfaced for me in my last game. Also does "movement" from a lost assault trigger Op Fire? Regardless of attracker or defender?
 
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Phil McDonald
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Thass wrote:
This problem surfaced for me in my last game. Also does "movement" from a lost assault trigger Op Fire? Regardless of attracker or defender?


You would be firing into a location that also contained your own troops.
 
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T Hass
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philmcd wrote:
Thass wrote:
This problem surfaced for me in my last game. Also does "movement" from a lost assault trigger Op Fire? Regardless of attracker or defender?


You would be firing into a location that also contained your own troops.


Phil, I mean after the assault. The looser has to "move" can a unit use Op fire from either terrain or a card to shoot at the moving unit.

Example; American unit assaults a German unit, the American unit wins forcing the German unit to move, the new hex the German unit moves into is within the LOS of a second American unit in terrain that provides Op fire. Can the second American unit shoot at the moving German unit?
 
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Phil McDonald
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Thass wrote:
philmcd wrote:
Thass wrote:
This problem surfaced for me in my last game. Also does "movement" from a lost assault trigger Op Fire? Regardless of attracker or defender?


You would be firing into a location that also contained your own troops.


Phil, I mean after the assault. The looser has to "move" can a unit use Op fire from either terrain or a card to shoot at the moving unit.

Example; American unit assaults a German unit, the American unit wins forcing the German unit to move, the new hex the German unit moves into is within the LOS of a second American unit in terrain that provides Op fire. Can the second American unit shoot at the moving German unit?


On the face of it I would say yes, but DPG might see this as a special situation for ruling.
 
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Phil McDonald
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tinitoon wrote:
SadisticInnTent wrote:
Is it possible to shoot at a unit that has been activated for movement but not actually moved yet?

Yesterday my opponent activated one of his units in order to move it.
I played the Opportunistic Fire card.
His first movement point would have taken him behind an obstacle resulting in my unit losing LoS.

Is it possible for my unit to fire at his when it is still in the space it occupied when it was activated?
Or must it actually have moved physically one space in order for my unit to fire?

I read somwhere that movement can be null(zero) so I'd say it is possible.

Since I am not sure and my opponent didn't agree I thought I'd ask.

regards Tim


I thought this is in the rules somewhere. You can fire at any time during the movement of an enemy unit (except for the supply phase). So when the movement starts you can fire. If the unit is not destroyed it may end its move and reach the desired location.


Yes, once it has begun moving, but NOT in it's starting space.
 
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Phil McDonald
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tinitoon wrote:
Yes, that's true but I thought the question was if firing was impossible at all because of the unit being behind some cover after its move.

So the question is not "Is it possible for my unit to fire at his when it is still in the space it occupied when it was activated?"

The question is "Is it possible for my unit to fire at his when it is in the space it moved to after it was activated?"

The answer is yes if you had LOS to the unit during its movement.


That was not the original question.
 
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T Hass
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I added my questions to this thread to help group Op Fire questions for our fellow heroes. It sounds like the unit has to physically move a square to be considered moving, then all hell can break loose on them. Simple enough concept.

What about the ability of "fire on the move"? Can I shoot first, applying the modifier, then move?
 
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Allan Doyle

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My understanding is a unit must chose between Fire and Move as an order. Assaults are part of a Move order.

When a unit declares Move as an action you may use Op Fire on it. Even before it moves.

http://www.devil-pig-games.com/forum/?action=viewtopic&t=126....1

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Allan Doyle

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I'll be honest with you, I find most of the posts by Axel very hard to understand. I feel they need someone with a better grasp of English as a community manager. But that' just my opinion.

As such, my brain was trying to simplify what Axel stated, so I came up with what I did. I feel they went the wrong direction on this. They took some thing that could be as simple as the way I explained it, and turned it into a complicated formula.

This is one of my fears for this game. I think this game can stay simple and still have the same complexity of play.
 
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Phil McDonald
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Mezike wrote:
Actually, I have to make a precision to my precision laugh
A movement order counts as movememt even if you move zero squares. So you can op fire on a unit that declares movement as an activation at the point when your opponent either attempts to move the unit or declares zero movement. When op fire and fire on the move are combined, fire on the move can resolve first from the originating square, then the op fire can happen.

So if you want to stay safe from op fire you have to declare a shooting action.

I hope I'm writing it clear as there has been a ton of confusion and debate on the subject!


That can't be right !

It goes against every other wargame out there. You can attract Op fire if and when you Actually move into another square.
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Phil McDonald
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Well its a ridiculously gamey interpretation of a well established principle. It makes no sense thematically either. I'm not surprised there is confusion with this arbitrary decision.

I'm not going to play it that way no matter what they say. It will completely confuse what is otherwise a pretty good system.

I doubt many wargamers will play it that way.

Trust me, confusion will continue.
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Phil McDonald
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tinitoon wrote:
Some special abilitys (camouflage or tripods for example) are only possible when the unit has moved. That is when a zero move may be applied.
Here is an example:
An MG squad makes a zero move and the token is flipped over. The opponent may opportunity fire at the MG squad.
Movement doesn't always have to be movement to actually change the location. It may also be uncautious movement caused by nervous soldiers lying in cover.


Fine, no queries over that anyway, and no opportunity fire either. Opportunity fire is only when you actually move, not when a unit needs to have a move order to stay in place.

The problem only arises because they lumped it in with movement. Units should be ACTIVATED, then they can move, fire or take other valid actions, one of which would be setting up tripod.
 
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T Hass
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We played "road to death" which had 3 positions (terrain squares) that offered op fire every turn. We played it that the unit had to move to a new square. The German player wasn't happy with this interpretation.

We had an awkward ruling as well; American tank was overrunning a German pak 40 in a "position" with op fire, the first half of the tank was on top of the Germnan pak 40, the German player declared op fire on the rear half of the tank, since technically it was still in the arc of fire (even though the pak 40 was in the same square as the front half of the tank). I allowed the shot, which seemed silly, at front armor for defense. The shot hit causing damage but the tank moved on. Seems a tank overrunning infantry should cause at least a -2 suppression but my understanding is that nothing happens unless you stop in the same square. Then the defensive unit has to move, if it has movement points.

Also, I don't think you would ever declare a move and not move. I think you can simply pass a unit's turn, same effect without the pickiness of causing this "op fire without a physical move" scenario. You could always just shoot knowing there is no chance of hitting the target.

I would create a house rule to allow a unit to conseal itself (first action)without triggering op fire first.

Bottom line for me, the unit has to move to a new square to trigger the op fire effect.
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Allan Doyle

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Mezike wrote:
Well, there are only two actions you can take on an activation - move or fire. Everything else is an extension of one of those two actions, so I can understand why the rule is the way it is. I just don't think it makes sense as there ought to be something that draws fire or it is one step too far in suspension of disbelief.

Edit: oh, unless the intention is "you decided to activate that unit so you might as well move it as you're gonna get shot anyway ya whiney pussy" in which case I feel much better about it we might just be overthinking this one Phil as I don't think it will in any way be a common occurrence.


I would buy into what you are saying IF there was a change in defensive value because the unit was moving. But as is, there is no change between Op Fire and normal fire. The target is there either way. To me Op Fire is a unit holding fire. Waiting for the order.

So yeah, IMHO you are over-thinking it. I think as soon as you choose Move as an Order the enemy suspects something and must decide to shoot or not.

I could almost see Op Fire being used at anytime. Sort of as a held Fire Order. But I think that might break the game. As is, think of it as a held fire order that can only be used on a unit that is given a move order.
 
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Allan Doyle

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I guess I just see Op Fire as more Proactive than Reactive.
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Phil McDonald
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Think I'm going to stick with the general wargame convention which is that Op Fire can only be used if a unit actually moves. Otherwise it is going to be really confusing for wargamers.

Clem's ruling is unthematic and counter-intuitive, not to mention going against established wargaming principles.

Don't see it as a problem as long as players agree the ruling before playing.

It might stop me buying the ios implementation if they go that way with the rule, which would be a shame, but such is life.
 
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leonardo balbi
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I dont mind to Open Fire in an unity that doesnt move. In fact it makes the rules even broader .

Imagine you are in a position , hidden in a hedgerow . Your captain just leave you demanding you stay in position ready to respond with fire as soon as you see some enemy moving. An "opportunity to you all enter the real war, rookies" were his last words.
Time has passed. Nothing.
Ok.Ok.Ok.
You and your pals are tense. Nervous.
Fritz lights a cigarette . Hans is writing some love letter that will never find its destination .
A hour passed. You see a squirrel playing with some nuts ...
Nothing. Boring time.
Then you call your squad attention ┬┤cos you just spotted some guys right in front of you . 40 , maybe 50 meters away
The Yankees ! You whisper to them . Hans , Fritz : they get ready in a heartbeat !
But something is wrong . They are not moving .
Should I stay or should I go ? I great name for a music you think.
You really dont know if they had spotted you .
Hans in the back comes close to your ear : What now, Grubber ?
Will they move ? I just dont know .
What now , Grubber ? the voice is a little louder now.
Wait ! You commanded them .
But after that you can see the yankees doing something ...
What the F...they are deploying...some kind of...
tripod...for a machine gun !!!!!
Fire !!!!
Your guys opens fire !
After a few seconds and a lot of smoke from your MG 42 you make the check.
We did. They are dead , folks ! They didn't know what just hit them .
Another day in paradise ! Franks shouted.
Another great name for a music , you think again...
 
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Mark Watson
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philmcd wrote:

That can't be right !

It goes against every other wargame out there. You can attract Op fire if and when you Actually move into another square.


Problem there being that it allows weapon teams to set up weapons in plain sight without attracting fire. It'd also have ramifications on vehicles depending on how you defined moving a square - from the rulebook a vehicle can perform a 'zero square' movement if it simply wants to turn, which would have some large ramifications (particularly for fixed firing arcs) if doing so didn't permit opportunity fire.

To me it makes sense thematically. If you declare a move the unit is doing something, whether it's reforming or just popping up out of cover, it's just not relocating. As in the above example if they're getting into a position or setting up a weapon I figure the troops would try to stop it.
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Phil McDonald
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Archonsod wrote:
philmcd wrote:

That can't be right !

It goes against every other wargame out there. You can attract Op fire if and when you Actually move into another square.


Problem there being that it allows weapon teams to set up weapons in plain sight without attracting fire. It'd also have ramifications on vehicles depending on how you defined moving a square - from the rulebook a vehicle can perform a 'zero square' movement if it simply wants to turn, which would have some large ramifications (particularly for fixed firing arcs) if doing so didn't permit opportunity fire.

To me it makes sense thematically. If you declare a move the unit is doing something, whether it's reforming or just popping up out of cover, it's just not relocating. As in the above example if they're getting into a position or setting up a weapon I figure the troops would try to stop it.


Still doesn't work thematically for me. A truck turning in the same space would have been visible already if there was line of sight. Quite posible for an mg crew to use tripod without being seen. I'm sticking to standard wargame principles on this.
 
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