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Marvel Dice Masters: Avengers vs. X-Men» Forums » Rules

Subject: Using Global Abilities - Again rss

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Kevin Worth
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This section of the rule book seems to be a mess or perhaps I just don't understand it.

This part
During the main step, the active player can use a global ability as one of the actions available during the main step. The other player can also initiate a global ability (that is, use one that is not a reaction to something else happening) after each action (purchase, field, etc.) that the active player uses during the main step.

tells me that in the main step the active players get to do one item (don't want to use the word action because that should be reserved for action dice) then the other player can do something

But two paragraphs later ...
In tournament play, the active player takes as many sequential actions as desired (from
zero to all possible actions) before pausing and indicating that the inactive player can
take an action. The inactive player can then either perform an action or decline the opportunity.
Then the active player can take more actions.


So now the active player can do everything and anything they want before the other player can do anything.

So which is it, active gets to do one item or as many as they want?
Or does this as many as they want only apply to attack phase? as it seems like there is only one chance there to do actions/abilities

You can pay for fielding multiple characters at once but are they are also fielded simultaneously?
Can you only do this to avoid losing generic energy?
What constitutes a Global abilities that are
paid for in a batch
?
Global abilities are all energy specific so there is no need to pay for things together to avoid losing generic energy.

Is there a global ability window at the very beginning of the main step?
(Specifically can the active player field Hawkeye-Longbow to knock out a character before the defender gets a chance to use Take Cover global?)
 
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Alberto Rocha
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Ya, I'm still very confused by this too.
And since it seems there is no "stack" (from MTG), I don't know if the
global ability is supposed to resolve entirely before the other player can "respond" (seems that there's no response).
 
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Kevin Worth
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An ability or action is resolved completely before moving on with the only exception being abilities/actions that prevent/redirect
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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So there are a lot of questions so I will answer one at a time.

"So which is it, active gets to do one item or as many as they want"

The active player does whatever he wants to do. However between each action taken, there is a window for the opponent to declare they want to use a global ability. This opens up a game state where the active player may do as many actions as desired before passing priority to the opponent to use a global ability.

"Or does this as many as they want only apply to attack phase? as it seems like there is only one chance there to do actions/abilities"

Global abilities can be activated in the Main Step and during the Attack Step (after attackers and blockers have been declared)

You can pay for fielding multiple characters at once but are they are also fielded simultaneously?

Kind of.......You can pay for multiple characters at once to use energy at the most efficient way possible. But when you field multiple characters at the same time, each "when fielded" ability is resolved individually and at the choice of the player summoning the characters in which order they resolve.

Can you only do this to avoid losing generic energy?

Basically that's the point, so you don't lose energy.

What constitutes a Global abilities that are
paid for in a batch?


The active player can activate as many actions as he wants before passing to the opponent. So I would guess if he uses more than 1 ability in a row its considered "a batch".

For example: Mjolnir has a global ability that states " pay 2 Bolt energy to deal 1 damage to a target character."

And Human Torch "flame on" has a global ability that states: "Pay 1 Bolt energy, when you deal damage with an action die or global ability to deal 1 extra damage to the target."

So the batch would be to use Mjolnir for 2 bolt energy, then use 1 bolt energy from Torch to deal 2 total damage to a target character.

Is there a global ability window at the very beginning of the main step?
(Specifically can the active player field Hawkeye-Longbow to knock out a character before the defender gets a chance to use Take Cover global?)


There is a window for the opponent to do things only after the main player has clearly passed his priority to the opponent. So in this instance, no. If hawkeye would knock out the defender because of a "when fielded" ability, then the opponent has no window to "respond" to the effect.
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Branden Sprenger
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I wish there was an official Flow chart to this game. It would help clear up most of the confusion.
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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The TL: DR version of the rule is this.

There is NO "response" window for actions. When an action has been initiated, until it has been resolved, there is nothing anyone can do.

The ONLY way to get around this is a card that specifically interrupts the resolution of a action. Spiderman "tiger" can pay 1 fist to avoid a single action from affecting him. So this allows the owner of Spidey to avoid a action from hurting him, ONLY because his printed ability is faster then the resolution of the original action attempting to hurt Spidey. Torch can boost an action die or global ability to deal 1 additional damage. Things like that can "interrupt" the full resolution of a action.

Other than that, once an action has been put into motion, you can't do anything about it.

So people asking about actions resolving and global abilities. You have to wait your turn. This is a simple You go, I go game. Not as much interaction between players as you fear/suspect.
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Branden Sprenger
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Cap's Shield has a global effect that let's you spend a shield energy to prevent 1 damage to a character or player. When would I be able to trigger this effect? Only during normal combat?
 
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Edward Bolme
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Jon is spot on. The only reactions are expressly called out in the game text; there is no stack, no imputed interrupts, etc.
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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sprengermon wrote:
Cap's Shield has a global effect that let's you spend a shield energy to prevent 1 damage to a character or player. When would I be able to trigger this effect? Only during normal combat?


ANYTIME ANY player or character would be dealt 1 damage.
 
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Branden Sprenger
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Starsplice wrote:
sprengermon wrote:
Cap's Shield has a global effect that let's you spend a shield energy to prevent 1 damage to a character or player. When would I be able to trigger this effect? Only during normal combat?


ANYTIME ANY player or character would be dealt 1 damage.


So I would be able to use this against a card effect like Mjolnir bolt damage even if the active player still has actions he wants to perform?
 
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Kevin Worth
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Starsplice wrote:
So there are a lot of questions so I will answer one at a time.

"So which is it, active gets to do one item or as many as they want"

The active player does whatever he wants to do. However between each action taken, there is a window for the opponent to declare they want to use a global ability. This opens up a game state where the active player may do as many actions as desired before passing priority to the opponent to use a global ability.


I think all my questions, at least, revolve around this point. Its also pretty clear to me that in the Attack phase you get one chance to do everything you want. There is no back and forth which is fine because you've had a chance to do things in the main step. It also seems pretty clear that this is not the case in the main step.

In my mind you are saying the same thing as the rulebook:
The active player gets to do all the items that they want
AND
The other player gets to declare that they want to use a global ability

Both of these statements can not be true.

Either the active player gets to do everything they want to and the other player has to wait (excepting prevent/redirects) until the active says go ahead. The other player then does a bunch of abilities and says go ahead to the active player. Rinse, repeat until done.
OR
The active player gets to do one item and then the other player can choose to use one ability. Rinse,repeat

To expand on my example:
Its the start of the main phase. The active player wishes to use Force Beam and field Hawkeye in order to knock out a character. So one field and one action, defintely can't batch together (which is another ball of worms). Does the other player get to use +1D ability after the resolution of one item or must he wait until after both have been resolved?

I don't think the rulebook is clear either way.
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Kevin Worth
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sprengermon wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
sprengermon wrote:
Cap's Shield has a global effect that let's you spend a shield energy to prevent 1 damage to a character or player. When would I be able to trigger this effect? Only during normal combat?


ANYTIME ANY player or character would be dealt 1 damage.


So I would be able to use this against a card effect like Mjolnir bolt damage even if the active player still has actions he wants to perform?


Yes, as best I can tell prevent/redirect are interrupts/responses/etc...
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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In my mind you are saying the same thing as the rulebook:
The active player gets to do all the items that they want
AND
The other player gets to declare that they want to use a global ability

Both of these statements can not be true.


Those are two COMPLETELY different thing all together. Both of those statements are indeed true, not based on how your mind perceives things.
The active player does indeed take actions as he pleases, and the opponent can also DECLARE his intent to use a global ability(Not actually using the ability, just declaring intent). So after the opponent declares intent to use an ability, the active player must finish up whatever he wants to do, then pass the chance to the opponent to take actions.

You described it correctly in your own post. Player A takes all actions they want, pass to player B. Player B does all the actions they want, pass back to player A. Rinse, wash, repeat.


To expand on my example:
Its the start of the main phase. The active player wishes to use Force Beam and field Hawkeye in order to knock out a character. So one field and one action, defintely can't batch together (which is another ball of worms). Does the other player get to use +1D ability after the resolution of one item or must he wait until after both have been resolved?

I don't think the rulebook is clear either way.


The rulebook is very clear about this situation. You are taking actions. Summoning Hawkeye, using an action die.......
The opponent declares his intent to use an ability. Ok, you still get to finish up whatever you planned on doing. And only WHEN YOU PASS priority to the opponent, can they even use a global ability.

The ONLY and I mean only way your opponent can even think about doing anything during your turn is using an action the PREVENTS/REDIRECTS damage(Or a character ability that activates when taking damage or something like that). The rulebook states on page 20, at the bottom of the "timing conflicts" section: "This structure is only used for initiating a game effect. Players are allowed to use global abilities that react to events at the appropriate time (for example a global ability that allows you to redirect damage when one of your characters takes damage)"

So unless an ability says "pay energy to prevent damage" or "pay energy to avoid being targeted" or "when targeted, pay energy to redirect the damage" or something like that. Then an action cannot take place while another action is attempting to resolve.

Your many different actions are not a batch at all. You are taking 1 action to summon Hawkeye, his effect resolves upon being fielded and he deals damage to a enemy character (1 action). Then you use the Force Beam to deal damage (1 action). At this point the opponent's character is dead. Even if he declared intent to use a global ability, its still your turn. The only global ability he could have used would have been something to redirect the damage or ignore it. So like Cap's shield for instance. He could redirect 1 point of damage as a reaction to the damage from Force Beam. But taking multiple actions is not a batch. I explained what a batch is already in the above post. Take a look.

I really hope this makes sense. I suggest reading the rulebook again to see how things have been worded and set in place. It honestly isn't all that difficult.
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Kevin Worth
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Starsplice wrote:
In my mind you are saying the same thing as the rulebook:
The active player gets to do all the items that they want
AND
The other player gets to declare that they want to use a global ability

Both of these statements can not be true.


Those are two COMPLETELY different thing all together. Both of those statements are indeed true, not based on how your mind perceives things.
The active player does indeed take actions as he pleases, and the opponent can also DECLARE his intent to use a global ability(Not actually using the ability, just declaring intent). So after the opponent declares intent to use an ability, the active player must finish up whatever he wants to do, then pass the chance to the opponent to take actions.


You are right, I am taking "declare" to mean "I want to do something, finish what you are doing right now and its my turn"
You seem to be saying "declare" means "I want to do something, please let me know when you done everything that you'd like to do".

While this is the proper meaning of declare, its also pointless because I can just wait until you say you are done, there's no need for me to declare I want to do anything because at some point you have to say moving on to the attack step (or resolve damage) at which point I know you are done and its my turn to use abilities.


I have read the rulebook, I'll quote them again and highlight the confusing and contradictory parts.

During the main step, the active player can use a global ability as one of the actions {Kev: assume this "action" means an star item from the main step and not action as defined in the glossary} available during the main step. The other player can also initiate a global ability (that is, use one that is not a reaction to something else happening) after each action (purchase, field, etc.) that the active player uses during the main step.


To rephrase the last sentance:
The other player can start a global ability after one (and every one) action that the active player uses during the main step.

This is clearly contradicted by
the active player takes as many sequential actions as desired (from zero to all possible actions) before pausing and indicating that the inactive player can take an action.

Unless there is another definition of 'initiate' or 'each' then either the 2nd or 4th paragraph on page 22 is incorrect.

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Jonathan Sugiyama
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During the main step, the active player can use a global ability as one of the actions available during the main step. The other player can also initiate a global ability (that is, use one that is not a reaction to something else happening) after each action (purchase, field, etc.) that the active player uses during the main step.

Before I respond, let me say there is no contradiction here. This explains game states and how they work as a whole.

During the main step the active player takes an action...... That is clear. At the resolution of a action, the inactive player initiates a global ability. Basically, "hey I want to use this global ability dude." So now the active player must take as many actions as he desires and then pass to the opponent. The active player MAY take 0 actions and just pass. The active player MAY field a creature, take an action, use a global ability..... After the window in which the inactive player declares/initiates a global ability, the active player has the chance to do anything they want, then pass.

The declaration of intent to use or initiate a global ability put the game into a state where the active player must pass their priority to the opponent to allow them to take an action. Otherwise the active player just does whatever and the opponent does nothing, because they never declared their intent to do anything.

Does this sound silly? Sure, I guess. But the rules allow the active player the option to do WHATEVER THEY WANT until they pass off to the opponent. So the rules do not contradict themselves.

The first rule: "During the main step, the active player can use a global ability as one of the actions available during the main step. The other player can also initiate a global ability (that is, use one that is not a reaction to something else happening) after each action (purchase, field, etc.) that the active player uses during the main step" is the basis for the game state to allow the inactive player a chance to take an action.

The second rule: "the active player takes as many sequential actions as desired (from zero to all possible actions) before pausing and indicating that the inactive player can take an action." is the game state resolution for the active player to finish up his turn and pass actions over to the opponent.

These sound similar and look similar, but are two totally different game states and rules on how to give the active player and inactive players a chance to interact on the game board.
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Kevin Worth
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I appreciate you trying to help out with my understanding but I either disagree or don't understand what it is that you are trying to say. I also don't have an opinion either way as to how the game should be played. So I'll reiterate my points and maybe someone else will chime with a different perspective.

Initiate means to start. It does not mean declare or advise or intend to start, it means to start.

Each means for every one considered individually.

One rule says I can start an action after my opponent completes one individual action.

One rule says I can only start an action after my opponent completes all actions (or all that he wants to at this point).

So either one of the rules are wrong or someone's (mine, the rule book writer's, Dr Strange's) definition of some words is wrong.
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Fair enough.

I will say that initiate in any two player game like this does not mean "you start". It means you begin the starting process. In MDM to initiate a global action, you declare your desire to do something. Maybe this is a incorrect definition of initiate for you. But in the game's rules, the initiation is when you declare "I want to take an action, so hurry up...", not "something is beginning immediately".
 
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Mike Beiter
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Im reading this exchange and am also confused and do see the OPs concerns. Perhaps a play by play example will help using specific dice and abilities. So we can see step by step when the inactive player gets to resolve global abilities. And by resolve I mean DO.

Lets say I have a global ability that does damage to a character. And its my opponents turn. He begins it by summoning Cyclops. Can I zap cyclops? Or do I wait for him to summon Cyclops, then Gambit, then Nightcrawler and THEN I finally get to zap?

And did I have to say, "hey Brian, FYI I want to do something so please tell me when you're done with your whole turn."

So if an example can be made I think it will clear it up.

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Jonathan Sugiyama
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Sure. They way I understand the rules goes like this.

Player A: Summons Cyclops.

Player B: "I want to use a global effect."

Player A: Summons Gambit, uses an action die, summons Nightcrawler. (does whatever he wants) Once finished, verbally declares he is passing priority to player B.

Player B: Activates global ability, pays energy requirements and zaps Cyclops.

Player A: now player A make take as many actions as he chooses. Then passes to player B to take an action if player B attempts to initiate another global ability.

Once both players pass sequentially the main step ends, then game moves to the attack step.
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Matthew McFarland
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You're talking about what the Tournament section on Timing Conflicts is saying, right? First, they say in there that you can play loosely with timing in casual play but have more stern rules for tournament play, which is what that is. So yes, one section may be a bit different from another. But. The bottom of the Timing Conflicts area very clearly says that you are allowed to use "Global Abilities that react to events at appropriate times." So no, you can't use a random Global when your opponent uses Phoenix to make a character attack, but you can use something that redirects damage if you would take it.

The tournament rules are more strict and slightly different. Instead of both players just going back and forth, the active player does everything he wants, the opposing player gets a chance to react to the game state, and it goes back and forth like that until no one wants to do anything.
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Mike Beiter
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Starsplice wrote:
Sure. They way I understand the rules goes like this.

Player A: Summons Cyclops.

Player B: "I want to use a global effect."

Player A: Summons Gambit, uses an action die, summons Nightcrawler. (does whatever he wants) Once finished, verbally declares he is passing priority to player B.

Player B: Activates global ability, pays energy requirements and zaps Cyclops.

Player A: now player A make take as many actions as he chooses. Then passes to player B to take an action if player B attempts to initiate another global ability.

Once both players pass sequentially the main step ends, then game moves to the attack step.


Thanks. That clears it up for me at least. That is what I thought you were getting at.

So to summarize. If player A has a series of dice that when when fielded make an awesome combo, and the only way to thwart it would be to zap the first character they field; there is no way for player B to intervene with a global ability until player A is done. Unless there is an ability that specifically states it interrupts or responds to the fielding of a die.
 
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Jonathan Sugiyama
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Starsplice wrote:
Sure. They way I understand the rules goes like this.

Player A: Summons Cyclops.

Player B: "I want to use a global effect."

Player A: Summons Gambit, uses an action die, summons Nightcrawler. (does whatever he wants) Once finished, verbally declares he is passing priority to player B.

Player B: Activates global ability, pays energy requirements and zaps Cyclops.

Player A: now player A make take as many actions as he chooses. Then passes to player B to take an action if player B attempts to initiate another global ability.

Once both players pass sequentially the main step ends, then game moves to the attack step.


Thanks. That clears it up for me at least. That is what I thought you were getting at.

So to summarize. If player A has a series of dice that when when fielded make an awesome combo, and the only way to thwart it would be to zap the first character they field; there is no way for player B to intervene with a global ability until player A is done. Unless there is an ability that specifically states it interrupts or responds to the fielding of a die.


Yes. You cannot stop a combo the opponent plays unless a card explicitly says you can. Like, "when an opponent uses and action die".... or "when an opponent fields a character...." So right now you have to wait until the opponent is done playing out his actions before you can do anything at all.
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Alberto Rocha
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So what's the point of the phrase:

You can use a global ability once the active player makes an individual action. ???
 
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Kevin Worth
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Eyefink wrote:

The tournament rules are more strict and slightly different. Instead of both players just going back and forth, the active player does everything he wants, the opposing player gets a chance to react to the game state, and it goes back and forth like that until no one wants to do anything.


Previously I was focused on page 22 "Using Global Abilities" but on reading that together with page 20 "Timing Conflicts" it appears that the first paragraph of "Timing Conflicts" is sufficient to cover all cases. So I don't think the rules are different for tournament play.

From "Timing Conflicts"
If there is a conflict of timing (e.g., both players want to use an ability simultaneously),
the person whose turn it is always resolves their effects first. If simultaneous effects are
controlled by the same player, that player chooses the order of those effects.


This is how I'm viewing these rules:
Essentially everything that either player wants to do during the Main step is simultaneous. So according to the above rule the active player gets to decide which of his actions (up to all) that he wants to resolve before the defending player's actions. Then decide which order to resolve his actions. Once he's done (including any prevent/redirect by the defender) then the defender decides what order to take his actions. Now the active player may have previously known he wanted to take some actions but wanted to see the defender go first or he may want to take some new ones based on what the defender did. So the active players gets another round. And back and forth they go.

Totin wrote:
So what's the point of the phrase:

You can use a global ability once the active player makes an individual action. ???

The 2nd paragraph on pg 22 implies that. My conclusion is that the word 'initiate' is being used improperly, it should really be 'notify'. Furthermore the paragraph really has no purpose and should not be there as there's no point to notifying your opponent as at some time they have to say "done for now, do you want to do anything"

The procedure for the main phase:
1. Active player performs any and all of the items that are available in the main phase that he'd like to at this time. Says done.
2. Other player performs any and all abilities he'd like to. Says done
3. Back to #1 unless both players performed no items


Thanks Jon for your efforts in trying to help me see this.



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